Did John Never Die?

[keilj]

This is a question concerning the Christian faith. Did the apostle John never die? In John 21:20-23, there is an indication that the apostle John may not die. I'm wondering if people believed that he died or not

Also, if he did not die, what does that say about the power of love? There are many versus in the 4 gospels in the New Testament that speak to how John was constantly displaying love, and that John had a capacity for love quite unparalleled. Did love reign so supremely in John's heart that it could save him from death itself?

[BienvenuJDC]

Jesus was addressing Peter's perspective. His actual words are:

Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

Jesus is making a point that IF he {John} were to remain, THEN...it is really none of your concern, Peter. Jesus did not indicate that this was going to happen. From the traditions and writings of the early church fathers it is regarded that John died of natural causes following his exile on Patmos. I would agree that is the most viable conclusion.

[keilj]

Jesus was addressing Peter's perspective. His actual words are:

Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

Jesus is making a point that IF he {John} were to remain, THEN...it is really none of your concern, Peter. Jesus did not indicate that this was going to happen. From the traditions and writings of the early church fathers it is regarded that John died of natural causes following his exile on Patmos. I would agree that is the most viable conclusion.

I agree that that is the most literal conclusion - but after all, the Bible deals with many things that go beyond literal and logical explanations

[kiki1982]

Just a thought:

Who does not believe John was a human being?

That would explain why he did not physically die and it will be very hard to argue that.

Even Jesus died physically, so that's a hard one.

[MarkBastable]

From the traditions and writings of the early church fathers it is regarded that John died of natural causes following his exile on Patmos. I would agree that is the most viable conclusion.

Incidentally, if you're going to die in exile, Patmos would be a great place to do it. The sardines are wonderful, and the people are welcoming. Even the monks from the monastery are pretty personable. What with all that, and the beaches and the wine, I don't know how he got around to writing anything.

Then again, given what he wrote, the wine might well have played a part.

[keilj]

Incidentally, if you're going to die in exile, Patmos would be a great place to do it. The sardines are wonderful, and the people are welcoming. Even the monks from the monastery are pretty personable. What with all that, and the beaches and the wine, I don't know how he got around to writing anything.

Then again, given what he wrote, the wine might well have played a part.

ha - yeah, if John was the author of Revelations - I would think mushrooms or acid might have even been in order

I just thought John would be an interesting discussion - because he seemed to set himself apart from all the other apostles again and again because of the way he loved. Of course Mary Magdalene did so as well - even after the apostles fled, Mary went to Jesus' tomb (devotion trumping fear)

[Rosie Cotton]

It depends on which dogma of Christianity. In my branch of Christianity (which is a VERY...unique form of Christianity) we believe that John did not die, but was changed from mortal to kind of resurrected directly. It's fairly complicated, but anyways. It depends on which branch of Christianity.

I'm Mormon by the way (which officially is a form of Christianity, and if you disagree, that's fine, but I consider myself Christian so just let it go).

[mtpspur]

The mind set back then if I read the New Testament correctly was the expectation the Lord Christ would return quickly and there was a chance that some the apostles would still be alive on earth to see this. As for John his humility is shown in that he tries very hard to conceal his activities by name--thus being referred to as the disciple that loved the Lord etc. etc. Hope this helps.

[keilj]

It depends on which dogma of Christianity. In my branch of Christianity (which is a VERY...unique form of Christianity) we believe that John did not die, but was changed from mortal to kind of resurrected directly. It's fairly complicated, but anyways. It depends on which branch of Christianity.

I'm Mormon by the way (which officially is a form of Christianity, and if you disagree, that's fine, but I consider myself Christian so just let it go).

glad to hear it

since we are dealing with issues of faith and love, it is worth pondering that John's love was something that could overcome the traditional concept of human death. After all, faith and love are the most powerful forces in this life or the next...

[Pendragon]

I seem to recall, and correct me if I am wrong, but Polycarp who was John's deciple wrote of the death of John.

Any way from Wiki:
"When John was aged, he trained Polycarp who later became Bishop of Smyrna. This was important because Polycarp was able to carry John's message to future generations. Polycarp taught Irenaeus, and passed on to him stories about John. "


" Christian tradition holds he was the last surviving of the Twelve Apostles and the only one to die a natural death. It is traditionally believed that John survived his contemporary apostles and lived to an extreme old age, dying at Ephesus in about A.D. 100."

"John's traditional tomb is thought to be located at Selçuk, a small town in the vicinity of Ephesus."

In the sense that there is life after death, St. John never died nor will he ever die. My statement of belief.

[MarkBastable]

In the sense that there is life after death, St. John never died nor will he ever die. My statement of belief.

In the sense that there is life after death, no one ever died. Which, if true, isn't really an answer to the question originally put.

[puppyshoes]

Jesus had just answered St Peter about the manner of St Peter's death in St John 21:15-19. St Peter asked about St John's death, "What about him?" Jesus answered curtly, "What if I want him to remain until I come?" St John lived to about a hundred, so rumor spread in the early Church that maybe he wouldn't die. The early Church also notes he was the only one of the apostles that wasn't martyred.

[BienvenuJDC]

Jesus had just answered St Peter about the manner of St Peter's death in St John 21:15-19. St Peter asked about St John's death, "What about him?" Jesus answered curtly, "What if I want him to remain until I come?" St John lived to about a hundred, so rumor spread in the early Church that maybe he wouldn't die. The early Church also notes he was the only one of the apostles that wasn't martyred.

This sounds to be the most logical assumption. Thanks for your input.

[johnnya]

Caught my attention when i saw the topic, this has been on my mind. So this is what I have read and test my faith. Jesus told john, his friend, His witness to what happened in Christ time, John who seemed to pass test that Christ gave. Many church reps have said that all those people Christ brought back to life died again, so they died twice in their life time? Sure people claim to die for small amount of time, but for example, Lazarus was dead 4 days, by then, yea, your dead. Now scriptures claim that Lazarus was also close to Jesus. From that point on , the priest of the temple also looked to kill Lazarus for fear of their glory fading. And in the last verse of the gospel of Matthew, its says the graves of the saints were opened and those bodies got out and went into the city. Christ has the power for eternal life, that’s why he was here. It is appointed for men to die once then the judgement, that is a scripture sayin in the bible in the book of Hebrews, and it is said the bible or word of God does not lie, most priest or preachers i have talked to say that all those resurrected by Christ died again, so somewhere there has to be a real beginning of the kingdom of God. I believe if all those people died again, well, what hope is there in this world then? Jesus said that in that time the 1st fruits and the harvest had started. John hasn't died, and Christ , can give such a gift, after all , look who is the author of eternal life and who gave it to him, read the gospel of John, how close he really was to Christ, he had more faith then all the others. They never actually found and verified the body of John being dead, they think he was boiled and tarred, back then, easy to fake i.d and no c.s.i. stuff . He could of actually walked off the isle of Patmos-like when Peter did and sunk-but John had the faith to walk anywhere, even Italy. John could even be one of the witnesses, since he didn't die, and it is appointed for men to die once, Revelations says the beast will kill the 2 witnesses and their bodies will lay in the streets for the whole world to look and 3 days later, they are brought back to life and taken to God. John was a close friend of Christ, he saw the future in visions as the book says while writing Revelations. But this book is really neat to read, a lot of puzzles and challenges you to prove it, he would be involved in shaping the return of the kingdom, making sure he is behind the scenes, possible the bodies of the saints who arose and Lazarus, surely these people would not make themselfs known to the public. And do not be suprised if you had already met one or crossed paths.

in ST.JOHN chapter 5, verse 21, it says
-For as the father raiseth up the dead, and quicketh whom he will.
verse 22, it says-
For the father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son. This is said before the 5ooo people were fed event. Notice it says committed (all)judgement, so he could have judged anyone, but he didn't until the time, with one word he could have damned one by judging him before the time, that’s why the demons asked him about being judged. Christ had the will to sustain it.
Now verse 25 chapter 5, it says
Verily, verily, i say unto you. The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

That was present at that time, he was already raising the dead and judged them because the word of God allowed him because the hour was coming at his death.

Now the rest, verse 26-29,
For as the father hath life in himself:so hath given to the Son to have life in himself. And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming. In the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.

The hour is coming and the hour is, most people at that time believed in the end of time resurrection. When he gets there to Lazarus home, this is the conversation ( St.JOHN chapter 11 verse 21,) .
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died, but I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God. God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.(that was her faith,she did't believe he meant at that moment.) Jesus saith unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?( he asked her a direct question) and she saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. And then she left to continue her buisness. It's there in black and white words.
Later, chapter 12 verse 9 and 10. It says, Much people of the jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also whom he had raised from the dead. But the chief priest consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death. Why would Lazarus die again, when it is appointed for men to die once?? Who really knows, only God.

[mike thomas]

The New Testament was written in Greek therefore a Greek alphabet was employed.

The whole thing is about a Jewish teacher who is killed by Romans, and framed in the Greek language. To prove the point, we are told that a sign written in the three languages was place over the Jesus cross. In other words, letters from alphabets were placed over the head of the most central figure.

Passing the books set in Rome and Greece, and moving on to the last book in the New Testament, we see it is set on a Greek Isle. Of course it was originally written in that language.

The first alphabet, the Hebrew table, was left behind, and the Gentile's alphabet was the new kid on the block, but the Greek abc, although it was the basis of the actual New Testament texts, was becoming less important in the world. The Romans had an even better one, an alphabet that was part Greek and part Roman.

Now, in the Book of Revelation, it straight away begins with the mention of a 'little book', and it is mentioned on more than one occasion.

The Greek-Roman abc can be seen as a 'little book' if the letters are laid out in the following manner:

A I R
B K S
C L T
D M V
-------------------------' spine '
E N W
F O X
G P Y
H Q Z

In other words, a 'Tower of Babel' in letters, a little 'book' of immense knowledge reaching up into heaven.

The little 'book' has a 'spine' which is better seen when the 'tower' 'falls over', but just before the letters are scattered like so many bricks or stones.

And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do:
and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.


Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD
scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

[ Genesis 11:5 to 11:9 ]


The Old Testament was actually copied and preserved in the Greek language. So the texts were well known.

Even that which they build, if a fox go up, he shall even break down their stone wall.
[ Nehemiah 4:3 ]


But what's all this to do with John standing and waiting for Christ? And why was Peter given the cold shoulder treatment? Peter was, after all given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and made ther 'cornerstone' thus his Greek name Petros. (See the Greek letter Pi)


If the Greek abc were to be laid out as a table of 8 columns by 3 rows, there would be seen a little man, dressed in a kind of suit of armour,
standing at the end of the table.

His 'head' is the letter Theta, his 'torso' and 'arms' the letter Pi and Omega forms his little bowed 'legs'.

The Roman (Latin) abc has a little man also, he stands in the same place as the Greek man (or boy - he's so little) and the Roman's name is IOHN, which was how 'John' was spelled in the olden days. IOHN is imprisoned, just as he was in the Greek Isle called Patmos.

But who has the ingenuity to release IOHN from his bonds? Or will he stand waiting for ever, unseen by all? The little Greek Peter knows the secret, for he too was held imprisoned, until angels released him.

Will anyone ever twig on to the fact that PATMOS is an anagram of A P MOST, and the most information is released when it is realised that P [being 15th ] when added to A [ being 1 ] sums up to 16, which is where the letter Q lives.


A B C D E F G H
I K L M N O P Q
R S T V W X Y Z

I Quit

lookeNZ Zee

Ha!