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Thread: Personal Responsibility

  1. #1
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Personal Responsibility

    I am huge believer in and proponent of personal responsibility. I am really quite ruthless when it comes to my belief and advocacy of personal responsibility. It is one of the reasons why I am not often very compassionate or sympathetic to listen to others complain about their problems. Because I believe that more often then not the individual is personally responsible for the situation they find themselves in. Either because of past actions they took, or because of actions they refuse to take, because it is easier to just complain and wallow in self pity and have others pat you on the back and tell you it is not your fault.

    I think one of the biggest problems in the world today is the fact that nobody holds any one accountable for anything anymore. Whatever happens, people have to try and blame some outside force for it, or others excuse them, by saying well it is not really thier fault, it is because of their environment, or society, or this that and the other thing,

    I grant that there are some things that happen which are out of a persons control and power, but I always believe, that in any given situation there is always a choice, everything comes down to the matter of choice. The choices may not always be pretty, they may not be easy, but that is how life is. I do not truly believe that anyone has no control over there situation, or that anyone can truly be forced into doing anything. Whatever action they take, it is an action they choose to take, though there may be a variety of reasons that lead them to take said action. It still all comes down to individual choice.

    I do not believe in protecting people from themselves. If someone does something stupid, they deserve, and should, suffer the consequences of that action, no matter how sever the consequences are, that is how they will learn not to do it again. People should not be babied or parented by the government. Laws should not be made that solely focus around protecting a person from themselves. (i.e. the seatbelt law). If a person sticks their hand in fire, and gets burned, they should not have the right to sue some company because the company did not warn them that fire was hot.

    I am sick and tired of people being compensated, and viewed upon as victims of some "evil" because they lack any resemblance of common sense. I am also tired of people thinking they are owed something from someone else, if they do something stupid. No one looks at themselves any more and says "hey maybe this happened to me, because I acted like an idiot."

    I am also tired of listening to people bellyache about circumstances in their life, which they do have the power to change, but they simply do not wish to take the steps to do so, because it would be too hard, and they rather just boo woo, and play the role of the victim, because it is easier and because others have gotten in the habit of accepting this, and patting you on the back and telling you it is not your fault instead of saying "hey why don't you get off your arse and actually do something about it."

    You have these options. It might be a struggle, you might have to make certain sacrifices, and it won't be an easy road, but it will get you out of the current situation which you are unhappy with.

    People are a victim only of themselves and the fact that they are not willing to look themselves in the eye, and say, just why am I in this situation, in what ways am I reasonable for these circumstances, and what options do I have to take to change it.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Are you reacting to something specific Dark? Having been born a quadriplegic, I do not think "pulling yourself up by your boot straps" is all that simple, honestly. I was spared intelligence, which may or may not be an irony in itself, but my failure in life is partly due to the oppression, even when it is unwitting, of an ableist society. I am not working because the Department of Transportation took the ADA, made it a weapon, and allowed my regional transit authority, (SEPTA) to drastically curtail Paratransit services. I can't use it anymore in good weather because I have a power chair, and if the power chair needs repair, SEPTA demands proof which I cannot provide because my medical vendor stopped doing repairs.

    Want to come live on my planet for a week or two?

  3. #3
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Just my thoughts in general about the lack of people being held a accountable for their own actions, and the tendency in people to prefer self-pity over taking action, simply because they don't want to take the effort or make the sacrifices required to altar there situations.

    As well I think part of the degradation of the world today is from the tendency for people to think they deserve to be rewarded when they do something stupid and don't want to own to the consequences of those actions, primarily being the majority of frivolous lawsuits stemming from someone trying to sue because of their own lack of common sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jozanny View Post
    Are you reacting to something specific Dark? Having been born a quadriplegic, I do not think "pulling yourself up by your boot straps" is all that simple, honestly.
    I never said it was simple, but I think part of the problem is the fact that people do not even want to try and do it precisely because it is not simple. It is far easier for a person to accept a state of vicitimhood, and doing so has become acceptable. Then making hard choices in an attempt to try and better themselves.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    People are a victim only of themselves and the fact that they are not willing to look themselves in the eye, and say, just why am I in this situation, in what ways am I reasonable for these circumstances, and what options do I have to take to change it.
    That sounds very harsh to me.
    I don't know where to start. Jozanny's example above perhaps, or the victims of war, famine, plague, disease etc. Is it their fault? Can they do anything to change their circumstances? Are they responsible for their situation?

    I hope you never find yourself in need of something as necessary as food, or shelter. Or find yourself in the midst of a war-torn country, where survival is everything. Would you be willing to look yourself in the eye then and say, why am I in this situation, in what way am I responsible for these circumstances, and what options do I have to change it? You would not have the inclination to participate in such abstract theorising when you were fighting to survive.

    You may see examples of cases where you think someone may need a prod to try and do something to help themselves. But such sweeping generalisations do not help. Apart from the practical day-to-day issues of surviving for many, their "apathy" as we could call it, stems from being locked into a spiral of depression, anxiety etc. which needs help, not a full-on attack.

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    I do believe people are held accountable. When someone makes a poor choice whether conscious or not society holds them accountable even when it is or isn't their fault. In fact I find society too harsh against those who truly need our sympathy. There is so much feel good I can do anything attitude in our culture that sometimes I think we ignore some realities and limitations of circumstance. I'm not condoning those who are ignorant and are lazy but can you expect everyone to rise above their misfortune? Could those facing genocide have a choice to fight back? Are they aware they have a choice? If the choice is between suicide or fighting, is it much of a choice?

  6. #6
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wessexgirl View Post
    That sounds very harsh to me.
    I don't know where to start. Jozanny's example above perhaps, or the victims of war, famine, plague, disease etc. Is it their fault? Can they do anything to change their circumstances? Are they responsible for their situation?
    No, I am not saying that at all. I am talking more about people who are more inclined to simply complain about the situation they are in, then taking steps to try and change the situation, when in fact said person does have options, but just finds those options too difficult and prefers instead to constantly complain about the same problem over and over.

    I am not speaking of people who are in dire cirucumstances in which they have not been given any control. But those who do not wish to hold themselves accountable when in fact they are reponseable.

    Those who wish to blame outside forces, when infact it was by thier own actions that they have found themselves in a particular situation.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    [QUOTE=Dark Muse;629425]

    I grant that there are some things that happen which are out of a persons control and power, but I always believe, that in any given situation there is always a choice, everything comes down to the matter of choice. The choices may not always be pretty, they may not be easy, but that is how life is. I do not truly believe that anyone has no control over there situation, or that anyone can truly be forced into doing anything. Whatever action they take, it is an action they choose to take, though there may be a variety of reasons that lead them to take said action. It still all comes down to individual choice.

    As I said, sweeping generalisations do not help. You concede that some things are out of a persons control, but then say there is always a choice. So the suituation they find themselves in is purely down to their bad choices. And so back to the circular argument that it is their own fault...

  8. #8
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Perhaps I worded it badly, but I did not mean to imply that it is their fault but they do have a choice in how they respond to the circumstances. They can either simply lay down and accept it, and complain about it, or they can make choices to try and better the situation. Just because they are not to blame for the circumstance, they are in control of how they react to the circumstance.

    And it is true, that everything does come down to making one choice or another, and again, I expressed, the choices are not always preferable, not always good, but they are still there.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Except for extreme circumstances, like Jozy's or the ones Wessexgirl points out, I agree with you Muse. You know there are people that don't go to school, take drugs, get themselves into trouble, and find themselves with a poor job or lose their jobs. And then they want to take through tax redistribution of income the money of people who did the the right things and work and actually make society function and prosper. I have a lot of compassion for the misfortunate; my father lost his sight completely in mid life. He needed help. But a lot of people have no problems in life but their uncontrollable impulses.
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    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Thank you Virgil, I had a feeling you would get where I was trying to come from with this.

    I was not trying to indicate, or include the most extreme of cases. But rather, those who do have options, but simply choose not to act upon them or those who by thier own bad choices find themselves in unfoavroable circumstances and wants someone else to be held responseable.

    Those who prefer to just bellyache, or look for a free handouts when there are steps they could take, but do not want to make the effort to take those steps, and instead find it easier to try and just wallow in thier self-pity.
    Last edited by Dark Muse; 10-13-2008 at 08:01 PM.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    I get you, DarkMuse.
    A thought, though.
    Indeed it is only ourselves to blame for a lot of the screw-ups we get into.
    But sometimes, it's an offshoot, if you will, of someone else's decision. Still, no matter how we are affected by others' decisions, others are affected by ours, too.
    There is a balance to it all.
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    Dark--I think you will have to look long and hard to find anyone who doesn’t believe in personal responsibility. Clearly the disagreements, when they come, will be in matters of degree. Thus when presented by Jozanny and wessexgirl with extreme examples you are forced to clarify your position by saying you don’t mean people in those particular circumstances. In my mind, by doing this, you create the exception that swallows your rule. In effect you are saying "I believe in personal responsibility except in those cases in which people really aren’t personally responsible.” An exception that, in my mind, is only reasonable but seems in opposition to the hard line position you take in your post.

    Finally, the individuals you describe in your post are stereotypes. I would argue that, as with all stereotypes, the reality is usually something very different.

    Just my two cents!

  13. #13
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    It seems to me that there are a good deal of people willing to make excuses for others or accept the excuses make for themselves rather then expecting them to hold themselves responsible for their circumstances.

    As for your argument about the stereotypes, my stance upon the issue comes from things that have actually happened. And just my own experiences with other people.

    While I have perhaps excluded cases of people living in 3rd world countries, or in another similar positions from this discussion, my stance is still relatively harsh and sever upon the issue.

    I could give a personal example which will likely make everyone hate me all over again, but I never let a thing like that stop me.

    I know someone who is in an abusive relationship, and she is constantly whinning and crying about it. And I am sick of listening to it, and sick of everyone else enabling her, by just telling her what she wants to hear, and holding her hand. When she has a choice. She is choosing to stay in the relationship when she could get out of it. She is not physically being prevented from leaving, so she is responsible for her situation because she chooses to stay there simply because she is not willing to face the struggles that would come if she were to get out of the relationship.

    But until she is willing to actually take steps to correct her situation I do not want to hear another boo woo from her, because she is allowing it to continue with her own inaction.

    She is not taking any responsibility for herself, because she finds it easier to just drink in the sympathy of all of her friends when things go bad.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Yeah, I get what your saying Dark. It drives me crazy - a friend of mine has been complaining and whining about her job and salary for years now. She's been saying she needs to find a new job but after two years (maybe three now) still hasn't even updated her resume let alone even looked for a new job.
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    I get what you are saying, too. I know this couple that bought a new life on credit- house, cars, clothing, furniture, trips and even a boob job. Once they had everything they wanted they took bankruptcy. That kind of thing drives me crazy and I know that is the kind of thing you are talking about. But there are so many bad situations that are like that, similar on the surface, but not so easily avoidable.

    Look at a family in poverty (I know I talk too much about poverty, but it’s my pet issue and one of study for me) that has a 22 year old, high school drop out mother, and a different estranged father for each of five different children. This family lives in section 8 housing and eats what the government pays for. Now can we blame the mother? Of course, I’m here to tell you that the mother can always be blamed! Can we blame each of the five men in the situation, yes and no. Would you stay with a woman who had four children and was screwing her dealer for crack? No way. Would you send that woman money just so she could smoke more crack? Again, no way. Can you blame the children, of course not. But these children are going to have to deal with life in this situation. They have to fight. To be a man in this situation you have to fight. Even middle class children living in a metro area have to be pretty tough, but in poverty situations there is no choice but to fight. Can you blame an eight year old? What about a 12 year old? As long ad this boy is in this environment he has no choice. How can a boy raised in this situation get out? Let me tell you, education has not been top priority in his home- getting more crack for momma has been far more important. And, something else to consider is that when a child is in a home with parent addicted to drugs the addiction is not the worst part. People will do any horrible thing to get their fix, anything, no matter how bad or how much it hurts their kids. Unspeakable things. And a daughter in this situation is in worse shape. She has to fight, too. And she is often at a greater risk of being the one who “pays” for favors. Sex becomes her only resource. School doesn’t meet her immediate needs. Next thing you know she’s pregnant, has no support from the father, no education to speak of, no job. Her best option, at least in her mind, is to try to find another man to shack up with to make ends meet. Can we blame the girl for her decisions? Yes, even though she was 10 or 12 or 14 when she was making these very grown up choices. She made bad choices. What is her escape? Where can a mother go with her children when she has no support, money, education, or job skills?

    These are some of the people who bellyache about their problems and they did make poor decisions. But, desperate people don’t have the same options that even slightly more privileged people have.

    I’m not saying that everyone in poverty has a life like this. But look at Jean ValJean. What choice did he have?
    Last edited by motherhubbard; 10-14-2008 at 10:53 AM.

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