So your going to change the world, but for whom?

**Mr Hyde** · 10-12-2008, 06:15 PM

Person 1- So you acknowledge that human nature can never be altered.

Person 2- Yes.

Person 1- You also acknowledge that we live in a very imperfect existence where there will always be inequality where humans will thrive by going against other humans and their will by devouring each other sometimes even destroying other people and their lives entirely.

Person 2- Yes.

Person 1- You also acknowledge that no utopia will ever be achieved.

Person 2- Yes.......

Person 1- So tell me then when you speak of change, progress, and the improvement of humanity, for whom do you speak of?

Obviously in the future inequalness will still exist as you admitted that inequality and the bondage of others will never cease.

Is this talk of change, progress, and the improvement of humanity only met for a select chosen?

Change for whom? Who shall benefit from this change when past, present, and future history is etched with inequalness?

Surely someone must benefit.......

Person 2- ( Walks off in disgustment.)

**B-Mental** · 10-12-2008, 07:59 PM

Thats a cute story, and it shows your pessimistic tendencies of debate. What is inequalness, did you mean inequality?

**SirRaustusBear** · 10-12-2008, 08:30 PM

We may never achieve total equality but we can lessen the degree of inequality.

You're argument is basically saying that ending slavery did nothing because inequality still exists.

**Mr. Vandemar** · 10-13-2008, 04:57 AM

Once again, we know that nothing can be perfect. You can't achieve perfection. But why do you think that making things BETTER is pointless? You can't always have get what you want, so settle for second best.

**Epistemophile** · 10-13-2008, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Hyde

Person 1- So you acknowledge that human nature can never be altered.

Person 2- Yes.

Person 1- You also acknowledge that we live in a very imperfect existence where there will always be inequality where humans will thrive by going against other humans and their will by devouring each other sometimes even destroying other people and their lives entirely.

Person 2- Yes.

Person 1- You also acknowledge that no utopia will ever be achieved.

Person 2- Yes.......

Person 1- So tell me then when you speak of change, progress, and the improvement of humanity, for whom do you speak of?

Obviously in the future inequalness will still exist as you admitted that inequality and the bondage of others will never cease.

Is this talk of change, progress, and the improvement of humanity only met for a select chosen?

Change for whom? Who shall benefit from this change when past, present, and future history is etched with inequalness?

Surely someone must benefit.......

Person 2- ( Walks off in disgustment.)

(another place; same time)

(enter person 3 and person 4)

person 3 - do you agree with shakespeare when he says that human nature remains the same?

person 4 - yes

person 3 - is it not in human nature to rebel, to strive, to fight, to struggle for betterment of humankind?

person 4 - yes, and a lot more.

person 3 - but what do humans rebel against? if every thing is part of this giant scheme of human nature, do they not revolt against themselves, and aren't their endevours pointless?aren't they rebels without a cause?

person 4 - not exactly.

person 3 - pray elaborate.

person 4 - i don't think anyone sets out to 'change the world' as such. for instance, the beatles didn't, i'm sure, set themselves up on a mission to change the way people looked at music in the 60s: they had some good songs to offer and they were perhaps happy as long as people appreciated their songs. the fact that they did change the pop scenario (synonymous with 'changing the world') would suggest that the world changes itself and people with genuine creativity, people with original ideas are instrumental to that effect, albeit unconscious.

person 3 - don't you think that the 'world changes itself', to use your admirable phrase, to an egalitarian cause? aren't the endless binaries supposed to be resolved in equality of man?

person 4 - now, equality is an interesting term that shouldn't pass unqualified. if i had time, i would explain what i think of the term. but i have to go. i leave you with a statement that comes to my mind when i ponder upon the condition of the present world, and hear the 'eternal note of sadness': there's no end to equality.

**Mr Hyde** · 10-14-2008, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by B-Mental

Thats a cute story, and it shows your pessimistic tendencies of debate. What is inequalness, did you mean inequality?

When I said inequalness I meant it as another way of saying inequality.

This thread is basically saying that if inequality will always exist what is the notion of change or progress people are talking about.

In a world that will always be inequal what significant change are people talking about?

Obviously if inequality shall always exist and never cease there is no significant change.
(A Contradiction.)

Is this notion of change or progress only for a select chosen while the rest of the world will remain in a inequal state?

Is this change people are talking about somthing that can only be bought? I really would like to know.

If the world is imperfect and illusions or dreams of a utopia will never take hold then the world is obviously I think changeless.

What says you B-Mental?

**Mr Hyde** · 10-14-2008, 10:41 AM

We may never achieve total equality but we can lessen the degree of inequality.

That will never happen...........

You're argument is basically saying that ending slavery did nothing because inequality still exists.

And?

**Mr Hyde** · 10-14-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Vandemar

Once again, we know that nothing can be perfect. You can't achieve perfection. But why do you think that making things BETTER is pointless? You can't always have get what you want, so settle for second best.

Because in the end nothing gets better but instead there is only the illusion of things getting better that those with power trick and conceive others to believe in order to pacify them.

**hoope** · 10-14-2008, 02:07 PM

And let me guess, hyde you r Person 1..

When we wanna change we don't change for anyone .. nor ourselves ..
We change because we wanna make this place a better place for living..
Yes ther are wars , poverty.. hunger.. ppl dying of disease...

but in the other hand there r ppl being born.. who need a better world to live in
there are cures for disease that have been discovered.. there r good inventions that r made.. there is GENETIC engineering that helped many patients.
These all are changes.. and they are for the betterment of human being..
we change coz we are humans.. we change coz we have to.. we change because a faith inisde us ;tells us to...
"Foe example; many ppl die in africa coz of simple disease.. just coz they don't have vaccinations... no medication.. .. but with the help of many orginazations ...many kids were able to live a better life.. & though many died .. but we were able to save some. They started a new life .. had education with the help of many charity orginations & the UN.. "

U can't call that nothing.. Where as i call it.. A BRIGHT CHANGE...

“We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.”

—Sir Winston Churchill

“A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.”

—Forest E. Witcraft

**Mr Hyde** · 10-15-2008, 11:42 AM

And let me guess, hyde you r Person 1..

Yes.

When we wanna change we don't change for anyone .. nor ourselves ..
We change because we wanna make this place a better place for living..

For whom? Certainly it is not for everyone equally..........

but in the other hand there r ppl being born.. who need a better world to live in

You keep speaking of this better world coming yet you also acknowledge that inequality will always exist.

So who is this better world being built for because I know you don't mean it for everyone equally.

Will this world only change for the better if you are an social elite or bourgeois?

Will this change for the better only be for a select chosen who are seperated from the impure?

there are cures for disease that have been discovered.. there r good inventions that r made.. there is GENETIC engineering that helped many patients.

Appearances and innovations may change but the element of human nature remains the same.

U can't call that nothing.. Where as i call it.. A BRIGHT CHANGE...

When I see no change in the human condition and it's nature I can indeed called it nothing or changeless.

**hoope** · 10-15-2008, 01:25 PM

[QUOTE=Mr Hyde;629941]Yes.

You keep speaking of this better world coming yet you also acknowledge that inequality will always exist.

So who is this better world being built for because I know you don't mean it for everyone equally.

QUOTE]

The word Pessimistic really suits u

.. but u can't make others so..
coz there r still optimistic people in this life & i happen to be one of them.

Change cannot be for anyone in personal.. but as i said we change things in this world.. for the betterment of humanbeing..even if evil exist we can come over it... who we .. people like me ; people who loves the world regardless of what it turned to .
Just because i agree there is in equality in this world doesn't mean , no one deserves a better future..
This is life if there is no poor ; wouldn't have been a rich people..
if there wasn't disease ; there wouldn't have been cures..
if there wasn't evil .. there wouldn't have been
These things existed long billions ages back.. & yet ppl were happy & living in peace.... Only coz everyone knew what he wanted & lived to make his day as bright as he can; regardless if he was poor or rich.
So its like a system.. that goes on.. Not you nor me have anything to do with it ..
Have you ever thought once of why we are called HUMANS .. ? well ! probably you know but u just forgot.. its derived from humane..
Which we have .. just coz some people.. r so cruel.. doesn't mean that we are all the same.. Sterotyping is not the right thing..

Peace exist even if you don't agree.. even if you don't want.. even if everyone in this world is aganist it..
It only takes a one person that have a deep faith in his heart..
Even if it was a young poor child..

Better life , better future.. Dreams .. that require only determination to make trough ..

" IF THERE IS NO DREAM , THEN HOW THERE GONNA BE A DREAM COME TRUE"

Being a pessimistic only effects you.. as an inside person.. but trust me it won't harm anyone else .
wish you joy & happiness but above all i wish you love.

**Dark Muse** · 10-15-2008, 02:29 PM

On this point I have to be in disagree with Hyde, I do beleive that small change is better then no change.

But looking at the state of things now, frankly I do not think there is going to be a world left anyway, so it really does not matter. There is nothing to show that there is anyway to resolve the problems humans have began or that anyone is going to make any real change to do so.

I no longer find it valid to talk about the future becasue I do not beleive in the exisitince of any real future anymore.

**Mr Hyde** · 10-16-2008, 01:57 PM

The word Pessimistic really suits u

..

It does....

but u can't make others so..

I could care less to be honest.

coz there r still optimistic people in this life & i happen to be one of them.

And why should I be concerned with such beliefs?

Change cannot be for anyone in personal.. but as i said we change things in this world.. for the betterment of humanbeing..

Which human beings? As I said the betterment and improvement of the world in the future will obviously not include all human beings as many at this website have acknowledged that inequality will always exist.

( And by saying inequality will always exist that includes the theoretical future too.)

even if evil exist we can come over it...

And what is evil? Your talking to a guy who doesn't believe in good or evil, right and wrong, and other ambiguous social descriptions.

Peace exist even if you don't agree.. even if you don't want.. even if everyone in this world is aganist it..

Peace exists? Really? Show me an example.

As for you comment on faith I'll have you know that I'm faithless.

I do beleive that small change is better then no change.

What's changing? Also: Apparently this change, improvement and betterment only includes a select chosen few by acknowledging that inequality will always exist.

It would seem that only those lucky enough to live outside of inequality or those not affected by it have the luxory of this change and improvement that everyone is talking about.

Perhaps it is a elaborate bluff those with power use to manipulate those without power into believing.

P1-"These fools literally believe that this change and improvement will include them in the future on a equal scale. Laughable!"

P2-"Let them believe it fool heartedly so long as they do our bidding."

P1-"Why not? It gives them false security in that it keeps the whip on them in their toiling labors."

P1- "You got to give false hope some credit in that it is the greatest instrument of control."

P2-"Misdirection and misinformation is always useful in enslaving minds."

But looking at the state of things now, frankly I do not think there is going to be a world left anyway, so it really does not matter. There is nothing to show that there is anyway to resolve the problems humans have began or that anyone is going to make any real change to do so.

Probally.

I no longer find it valid to talk about the future becasue I do not beleive in the exisitince of any real future anymore.

A valid point.

**Dark Muse** · 10-16-2008, 03:20 PM

You seem to be of the mind, that sense making an absolute utopia is impossible, then why bother to attempt to make any imporvement at all.

That is ALL the problems cannot be solved, no one should attempt to solve ANY of the problems.

As to an example of some change that has taken place. Women have a lot more rights, freedoms, independents, then they use to once upon a time ago. Sure there are still a few select parts of the world that hold old world views about women. But once upon a time ago the marjoriy of the world with only a few meeger exceptions viewed women as sub-class, inferrior to men, whose only purpose was to stay at home and pump out babies.

The view of women in the majority of the world has imporved. The problem has not been completely eliminated. But it is a lot better then it used to be.

**subterranean** · 10-16-2008, 03:54 PM

They say practice makes perfect. But if nobody's perfect, then why practice?

I think it's just sad if one decide to sit on his couch and do nothing just because he has this point of view that no matter what he does, there are always be poor people out there. We will never know what can 1 dollar bill or a piece of bread do to someone else's life.