Does Modern Slavery Exist?

[Mr Hyde]

What is the act of slavery?

Slavery is a state of forced bondage where one is in a constant state of being forced against their own will amongst living.

Does modern slavery exist?

How many people in our post-modern world are forced against their own will into living lives not of their own choosing by existing in a state of misery doing repetitive laboring tasks everyday without any social benefit at all for themselves?

Can we not call this slavery?


One may say somthing typically modern that we compensate people and therefore we cannot properly call them slaves but what is paid to a great deal of people is the bare minimum which is almost like being handed scraps from under the table of the rich.


Just because people are minimally compensated to current standards of living doesn't make their life any less slave like.

And yet even still another might say in a typical modern manner that such people could get a education in order to increase their standard of living thus decreasing their misery where that alone proves that they cannot be called rightfully as slaves but this is built on the assumption that everyone has a equal biological ability to acquire standardized information and knowledge where in contrast that simply just isn't the case.

Some people don't have the mental ability to acquire a higher education where others don't have the financial means.

By acknowledging all of this we cannot say that slavery does not exist in our post-modern world or age.

By acknowledging all of this more importantly we cannot say that slavery does not exist in the west since we rather naively see ourselves as a shining beacon towards the rest of the world in western civilization perceiving ourselves to be the superior.

Slavery exists even still in our present post-modern world even though it looks like nothing where it originated as it is concealed more cleverly and the post modern person who says that it doesn't exist hiding behind the delusional facade that post modern society is this enlightened entity is only in denial.

If we acknowledge that there are many who live a life of bondage who are at the same time forced against their own will everyday in one fashion or the other in living a life that is perceived in themselves not of their own choosing there you will find modern slavery.

The so called civilized human being who is described as being moral, fair, altruistic, and equal is none of the above just by watching the percentage of many people living who are forced to live lives not of their own choosing.

The so called civilized human is as barbaric and primitive as their ancestors were three thousand years ago different only in cleverly concealing their acts under a barage of abstract symbolism and ideals.

[SirRaustusBear]

Have you ever read Into the Wild? Anyone can make the same choices McCandless did.

Some people can't because they have to take care of children, but it was their choice to have children. Also they could still pull a Gauguin and take off for Tahiti.

[Jozanny]

By acknowledging all of this more importantly we cannot say that slavery does not exist in the west since we rather naively see ourselves as a shining beacon towards the rest of the world in western civilization perceiving ourselves to be the superior.

No educated Western adult denies the existence of slavery in the contemporary era; it is called human trafficking, and in the Sudan, it is Arabs enslaving Africans. I do not know why you need the soapbox. Even with the admission that this subjugation still exists, we no longer live in a bedouin or an imperial society where slavery is necessary for the function of an economy. Modern slavery died out with the defeat of the American Confederacy.

Next drum roll please?

[JBI]

You don't even need to go to the Sudan. There are underground human trafficking occurrences in rich modern countries as well.

But lets be honest, people working minimum wages to support a family, when that minimum wage barely pays for the necessities to survive, is slavery.

[SirRaustusBear]

The minimum wage cycle o' despair is, if anything, indentured servitude.

Also, the public education system in America can help people escape the cycle, and I know it sounds cheesy but if you work hard scholarships are not that difficult to obtain, at least in America. I don't really have any knowledge of education systems outside of the US.

Certain personal situations like growing up in impoverished surroundings can deny opportunities that would otherwise be available, but like I said above, you can still go McCandless or Gauguin on everyone's asses.

At what wage do you consider work to become not slavery? Is it when people are able to save money, or to buy televisions, or what?

[Jozanny]

You don't even need to go to the Sudan. There are underground human trafficking occurrences in rich modern countries as well.

But lets be honest, people working minimum wages to support a family, when that minimum wage barely pays for the necessities to survive, is slavery.

It is poverty yes, but not slavery as an institutional form of exploitation. Since my loss of special transportation services, and the decline of my physical health, I am forced to survive on disability, a small inheritance, and what I take in from freelance (and I do still earn a little per year)--and in the US, the entitlement system, almost by default, is designed to *punish* the poor and the otherwise vulnerable--but I don't think even the most liberal progressive would say the US forces the under and working class to be where it is. Education always costs money JBI.

You and I argued about patronage and arts in other threads.

[JBI]

The minimum wage cycle o' despair is, if anything, indentured servitude.

Also, the public education system in America can help people escape the cycle, and I know it sounds cheesy but if you work hard scholarships are not that difficult to obtain, at least in America. I don't really have any knowledge of education systems outside of the US.

Certain personal situations like growing up in impoverished surroundings can deny opportunities that would otherwise be available, but like I said above, you can still go McCandless or Gauguin on everyone's asses.

At what wage do you consider work to become not slavery? Is it when people are able to save money, or to buy televisions, or what?

The American education system isn't even that good. The European system justifying it is one thing, but to be honest, for a child who comes from a large family, with only one parent, good luck getting scholarships, and enough to pay for living expenses in university, while having to help support the family.

The US education system is, like most other U.S. government programs, but OK, but not great, and clearly not as equitable as you seem to make it sound. It's a shame you guys pay such high taxes, when your government seems not to provide much.

[SirRaustusBear]

What I said about scholarships in the US was based more off of personal experience than actual statistics. I'm going to UNC Chapel Hill right now, which is a fairly prestigious state school, and everything is paid for plus about $1500 dollars a semester for "Miscellaneous expenses." In high school I did well but I wasn't best in my class, so it is obviously possible to go to college despite poverty. This of course ignores the negative effects of living in a poor or dangerous neighborhood on your ability to get good grades.

[JBI]

The question though, is how is slavery defined? That I think, depends on where you stand politically. I personally am more left-leaning. But either way, the traditional form of slavery exists in almost, if not all, countries. look at illegal labor work done in Canada on the west coast, or in the south by Mexican workers. Those people are enslaved. That isn't even mentioning illegal forced prostitution, which is a problem, though not a very noticeable one by most people.

[amanda_isabel]

Marxist theory: slavery--not the technical meaning, but its essence of being forced into situations and act upon them-- is present in the capitalist society, particularly for the proletariat. The whole idea of capitalism has capitalists as the masters of society; that is, the laborers' labor belongs to them. Profits gained from that labor belongs to the capitalist and additional profits do not translate to additional anything (more often than not) for the laborer. The laborer, as his labor does not belong to him, becomes alien to his work. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. How's that for modern-day slavery?

__

[JBI]

Marxist theory: slavery--not the technical meaning, but its essence of being forced into situations and act upon them-- is present in the capitalist society, particularly for the proletariat. The whole idea of capitalism has capitalists as the masters of society; that is, the laborers' labor belongs to them. Profits gained from that labor belongs to the capitalist and additional profits do not translate to additional anything (more often than not) for the laborer. The laborer, as his labor does not belong to him, becomes alien to his work. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. How's that for modern-day slavery?

__

My thoughts exactly, though I think we historically are 1 dialectic passed Marx's time period.

[Mr. Vandemar]

Sorry to ignore your post, but I have to say this:

The blatant type of slavery which you are implying no longer exists and is replaced with subtle and hidden slavery DOES still exist. The trafficking of women into prostitution into countries (through Canada and then into the United States) exists prominently in rich Western countries (that includes your country, whichever it may be). Also, the treatment of immigrants in countries such as Saudi Arabia can be compared to slavery. (I didn't notice the others pointing this out, but I'm still going to post it)

That being said, I still disagree with your point. Slavery is forced labour without pay. We labour in society and receive money, relationships, pride, or any other form of satisfaction. When you say that we labour for no "social benefit at all" for ourselves you are wrong. Try being an unemployed hermit.

Just because people are minimally compensated to current standards of living doesn't make their life any less slave like.

Yes, yes it does. The current standards of living to the American citizen are fairly good. If you receive any compensation at all (minimum or not) you are not a slave. Let me be very clear I say "compensation" monetarily, because you are free to do what you want with your money. Did the Blacks in pre-civil war America have that liberty? I think not.

I understand what you are saying, but what you are pointing out is not "slavery" per se. It's the constriction of liberty.

Also, you talk about these people are are not free to choose their "destiny" (paradox?). Please give me some examples. Sure, there's the occasional George Bailey, but in the western Bourgeois and Capitalist countries liberty is a given.

[Virgil]

Marxist theory: slavery--not the technical meaning, but its essence of being forced into situations and act upon them-- is present in the capitalist society, particularly for the proletariat. The whole idea of capitalism has capitalists as the masters of society; that is, the laborers' labor belongs to them. Profits gained from that labor belongs to the capitalist and additional profits do not translate to additional anything (more often than not) for the laborer. The laborer, as his labor does not belong to him, becomes alien to his work. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. How's that for modern-day slavery?

__

You've got to be kidding me. Are they still teaching this nonsense in school? Does anyone know of a single communist country? Other than the pathetic Cuba? Come on. This nonsense died years ago, and rightly so. Because it doesn't work. And no one in a free country is a slave, even if they make minimum wage.

[JBI]

You've got to be kidding me. Are they still teaching this nonsense in school? Does anyone know of a single communist country? Other than the pathetic Cuba? Come on. This nonsense died years ago, and rightly so. Because it doesn't work. And no one in a free country is a slave, even if they make minimum wage.

Marx hasn't been proven wrong, because we haven't had a Marxist country. According to him, the process is inevitable, and the pre-determined outcome of society. Since Russia wasn't the richest, most capitalist country, it can be assumed that their revolution, and "communist" regime wasn't Marxist.

Slaves were fed too, and often provided places to sleep. I see no difference, other than people are given the opportunity what to eat, and a little bit of choice as to where to live.

Either way though, human trafficking isn't even that small a problem. Read the Wikipedia article on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking#Extent

Though Wiki is unreliable, I think we can trust it to some extent.

[Virgil]

Marx hasn't been proven wrong, because we haven't had a Marxist country.

And you never will. It's impossible to have a truely Marxist society; it violates human nature. But you utopians will never stop dreaming.

According to him, the process is inevitable, and the pre-determined outcome of society.

And what is he, a god? He knows the future. His predictions are laughable. Have you ever taken an economics class? Marx was some third rate historian and that gave him the ability to understand economics and make predictions?

Since Russia wasn't the richest, most capitalist country, it can be assumed that their revolution, and "communist" regime wasn't Marxist.

Huh? And they didn't redistribute? Actually "redistribution" is a euphamism. They butchered anyone who had money and they stole it.

Slaves were fed too, and often provided places to sleep. I see no difference, other than people are given the opportunity what to eat, and a little bit of choice as to where to live.

Well, then you're a ideologue. There are have been governments of both the right and the left who have had opportunity to change this. Neither have because there will always be minimum wage people. Who by the way are predominantly part time workers, students or people with who have reasons not working full time like mothers. Almost no one working full time earns min wage.

Either way though, human trafficking isn't even that small a problem. Read the Wikipedia article on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking#Extent

Though Wiki is unreliable, I think we can trust it to some extent.

I wasn't commenting on human trafficing. Yes I know about and detest human trafficing, and I have supported outlawing pornography. Most human trafficing is associated with porn and prostitution.