Yes Bien... yes, it would be more logical... Less spiritual perhaps - but more logical.Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
No...no, it wouldn't be more logical...
Anyway... enough of the God stuff or we'll end up getting told off by Scher!
Free Will …a nice thought – but it ends there.
Last edited by Michael T; 03-23-2010 at 03:39 PM.
It's not logical to deduce that there may be an intelligence behind all the laws of nature, such as the laws of physics governing particles and bodies? That's your perspective. Understand that it's a relative type of thing. I used to have your perspective, or one similar to yours stated here, and now I do not. That's because paradigms are, like all things, governed by the law of change. But actually Michael, all opposites are yang and yin, and they form a whole. Every pair - self, other; light, dark; life, death. Well and you may say that you think what I've said is illogical or what not, that is your right, but I'm not here really to argue just to type a little.
Many things have been proven scientifically.. the value of hope, (in laboratory experiments on rats this has been proven...) of faith (in one's ability to heal oneself, etc...), the positive effects of so many things such as kindness and love (three things: viewing, performing, and receiving acts of kindness all give an increase to our immune system. One might deduce that there's a good connection between health and kindness...). There are these and other examples and if you'll search you'll find more, and if you study and meditate you can find many of these things to be true... As Lao Tzu said, "How do I know these to be true? I look within and find them to be."
As for Freedom... I think there are different levels of awareness and that that has a lot to do with it. Of course, one's environment has a part to play here. A person who is kept as a slave has a very different life than one who lives as a citizen in a nation where the rights of the individual are valued and protected... Metaphysically or ontologically, freedom does exist... but we have to make it and keep it...
Of the different levels of awareness I think the poster of this thread may be referring to one of them... Like in Plato, the allegory of the cave... People are chained in the cave and watching shadows on the cave wall is their life. There is another world they're unaware of, many dimensions they do not know.
Many people have been set free by art! And by love. Love is really the only way we can get to steady levels of awareness I would say.
But what is the difference between Plato's cave-dwellers and someone who has broken free of their shackles? Are we one of the shackled, or are we outside of that cave? How would we know? Well, we can tell by reflection.
But the great thing is that anyone can break free of their prejudices, anyone can reach higher states of awareness and consciousness.
That is true Nikolai.. Love is only way that we can change...As they always say ALL WORKS OF LOVE
and Micheal as much as i think that Nikolai's post was quiet enough . Yet ! and trust me freedom is there .. and free will exist no matter how people try to deny it .. everything around proves that ..
"He is asleep. Though his mettle was sorely tried,
He lived, and when he lost his angel, died.
It happened calmly, on its own,
The way the night comes when day is done."
Yes, Hoope, freedom exists and that has enabled us to transact with one another on this forum or else how could you share the feelings private to ourselves
“Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””
“If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.
We enjoy feelings of freedom certainly. As for 'free will' Perhaps we feel we have that in the way a seed (if it were to think) could imagine to itself that it is free to grow in any direction it chooses - and decides for itself to grow upwards, feeling pleased with itself because it imagines it has 'free will'! Hmmm...
I wonder if any amount of arguing would convince that seed that it didn't have free will?
Last edited by Michael T; 03-26-2010 at 06:38 PM.
Yes but in human life there is not just one thing, going upwards. There are infinite degrees of variation in quality of life.
There certainly are NikolaiI - but no Free-Will!
Well we have to start over then because you distracted us by your analogy!
It's just a question of opinion... if there's not free will, then it's so convincing that we may choose one action or another that it isn't really a promising line, that is, in the results (practical or otherwise) that such pondering will produce..
I'm all for pondering abstract questions, and I do understand the basics of this one, but it doesn't interest me as much as others. And freedom I do see as existing because it is a relative thing. Actually it quite exists - just like everything we can possibly imagine does exist, somewhere under the sun, even if it is in our dreams while we while away the time in sleep in that sun...
There is freedom.. and bondage.. and freedom in bondage.. and bondage in freedom.. and an unlimited number of other combinations.. or so I have it.
Speaking as a woman, we certainly have more freedom than say my great grandmother for example who was not allowed to inherit her fathers estate, or own a bank account in her name, or allowed any property in her name. Today we are free to choose if we wish to marry or not, 50 years ago this was generally not the case. From the beginning of time women were property themselves until very recently. So I am free, and grateful for it.
In some countries the people are freer than others, sad but true.
That's a terrific point, and a strong one, bringing practicality to the issue rather than leaving it in the abstract.
You are right. Of course we are much freer than our predecessors, ancestors, and we can take decisions, do things of our choice. We can defy the institution our grandfathers were forced to abide by; we are freer than our grandmas to elope with our next door boy for honeymooning for a few days and break. We can openly and easily kiss, hug in schools, and walk on the street in see through clothes. Sunbathing on a shore with our private open is not tabooed now.
Of course freedom is there and an excess of it and yet loneliness and estrangement have swathed us more and of course our hearts are palpitating more now when our sweethearts betray us.
Yet I love freedom at these costs. Because I am intoxicated with it.
“Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””
“If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.
Doctor Faustus' freedom too engages me in reflection. He wanted freedom, the freedom to see the beauty of Helen, the freedom enjoy the things that were allowed for gods on high, the freedom to see the things no mortals could not see. But the condition was too much taxing
“Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””
“If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.
Explain to me how someone who believes in free will cannot by nature believe in cause an effect.But surely if you believe in Free Will, then you dismiss Determinism (cause and effect) and that means there is no justification for requiring a God for the creation of the universe. (Something from Nothing or First Cause) Thus Free Will = No God.
Excellent ...you've disproved the main arguement for the existance of God! I always thought we athiests were on the right track!
Courtesy of google. Free will: the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies. If we make decisions unconstrained by external agencies (i.e. biases influencing the decision) then we have free will. If an effect stems from a free choice, can't the decision be the cause and the result the effect? Free will gives us the ability to make our own decisions: cause and effect summarizes what results when we make our decision.
God, according to the Bible, is beyond our dimensions. As such, our actions would have no ability to hint to His existence or not, as His existence is not affected by our realm of possibilities. This does not necessarily validate the contrary, however. Don't limit your judgment to assuming that humans affect a God's existence.More to the point - Wouldn't it be more logical for you to look at it from the point of view that there is nothing in this universe and nothing logical in human history that actually points to the existence of some form of Supreme Being and so therefore we should all start from the premise that there isn’t one? At least until one decides to manifest itself to us all and shoot me down in flames!
If nothing logical exists in human history, tell me how history itself began (i.e. how we came to be). Did the materials necessary for the Big Bang just *magically* appear? Did the atom, proton, neutron, nucleus, element(s) just magically create themselves?
I cannot resist saying this- Bien and Danielare absolutely entertaining.
I read the entire discussion beginning from the first thread. I found myself agreeing with some, not agreeing as much with some and completely disagreeing with others. But, I am not sure whether to trust my understanding of whatever I read.
You see, the problem is that even after so many things having been said, there is hardly anything to be deduced. It's almost like people conversing in languages that have identical sounds to signify different meanings. Even the word 'free will' is being used by everyone in varying sense. But so is the case with other key words like 'freedom', 'liberty' or even 'we'.
There are so many different perspectives through which the question at hand is being discussed but no common language to communicate effectively.
Two points on determinism vs. free will.
My observation about human beings is as follows. First, Arthur Schopenhauer said that as a person goes through life they inevitably think that all their actions are free; but when they look back on their life they find, to their astonishment, that there was a cause, of some sort, for everything they did. They went to Starbucks BECAUSE their tummy told them they wanted a vanilla latte. They took out a loan BECAUSE they were running out of money. They went to college BECAUSE they wanted to get a good job...
HOWEVER: in my view, if we actually consider all of these events we notice that there was a choice involved. For instance, the subject went to Starbucks, but had the choice of saving that money (and thus being able to use it for something else and have financial peace of mind) or spend it on coffee and thereby get some liquid happiness. The subject weighs each option and then comes down on one side or the other. EITHER WAY the action was caused (either by the desire for peace of mind or a craving for caffeine); but choice was still involved.
In other words, we choose what will cause us. So, in a sense our actions are determined. But in another sense, there is choice.
As rational beings we cannot but do things without a cause, without a reason. Only a madman does things for no reason. But this brings me to my second point. It is as follows:
Rationality requires human free-will. This is because reason involves making a choice between possible answers to a question, a choice based upon inductive or deductive logic. Determinism means that, regardless of the evidence, you will always choose X and never Y. Thus if I am determined to think, for example, that the universe was created by a flying spaghetti monster, it will not matter how much evidence against this idea is presented to me, for I am predestined to believe it. Thus if there is determinism, there is no reason. If there is no reason, there is no philosophic project. In a deterministic universe any reasoned decision is an illusion, because it was predetermined. Reason presupposes that one can reject the false and choose the true.
The psyche is like a law court; the mind is a group of lawyers; and the will is the judge. The mind considers its options, weighs the evidence; often there will be two or more "cases" in the mind, two or more options which put forth their best arguments. The will chooses the strongest case. A person who is "reasonable" is one who is open to allowing his will to be swayed by evidence in the court of the mind.
Thus, irrespective of whether determinism is true or not, it is fatal to philosophy.
Be respectful to your superiors, if you have any. — Mark Twain
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for, I have no idea. — W.H. Auden
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