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Thread: Freedom Doesn't Exist.

  1. #91
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Freedom is a relative term. What should I call freedom. When I love somebody I will have to give in to her some of my freedom

    Some people say when you are alone you can be completely free. But this is wrong. For we will be still be the slave of loneliness or loneliness will reign over us

    Freedom is a myth and we are never free in the real sense

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  2. #92
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    I correct myself: in my previous post I said that "rationality requires free-will." I stand by the thought, but would like to emphasize that I do not mean "free will" in an absolute sense.

    If, by freedom, you mean "not caused," than I do not believe we have freedom, nor is such a thing to be desired. Everything we do has a reason. But there is choice.

    Thus, when I said "free will" in the above post, I meant a limited free will. Or, more accurately, a will free to choose within a causal framework.
    Be respectful to your superiors, if you have any. — Mark Twain

    We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for, I have no idea. — W.H. Auden

  3. #93
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    As usual, threads about 'free will' end up in a huge mess. I can't resist, I gotta add a brief summary of my own views.

    Up until recently, I was sure that determinism is flawed because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It states that position and velocity of a particle / wave cannot be measured both at the same time. And the principle is fundamental, meaning not even with the best methods imaginable could anyone do so.

    However, it has been pointed out to me that determinism might still apply, because even if it is impossible to predict quantum effects, they might be determined, hence non-random.

    Anyway, the point is, it doesn't really matter. Except, which I highly doubt, if Roger Penrose's theory about consciousness is true (brain uses quantum uncertainty to make free decisions, see 'The Emperor's New Mind'), then quantum effects don't matter for free will because they're random and can't represent 'what we want'.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoope View Post
    Many people try to conect or link between the determinism and free will ..infact mostly philosophers do that.
    But i think that they don't meet ..
    The existence of free will has always been there .... and human being is responsible for his acts .. Determinism can not be versus to the free will
    But the actual opposite to free will is the fatalism , here the will is uneffectual.
    I'm not sure whether Hoope said this for the same reasons I would, but I must say this is exactly how I see it. The important question is not whether actions are undetermined, other whether in fixed circumstances various different results may be possible (of course neither is true). What matters is 'whether human beings are responsible for their actions'.

    I think the answer is 'yes', because by holding people responsible for what they do, one creates a deterrent. A criminal thinks twice about committing a crime if he knows he's expected, by society, to follow the law, and if he gets caught, he'll get prison. So holding people responsible for their actions changes their actions for the greater good of society, and that is all that matters from a purely result-oriented point of view.

    There are some restrictions, i.e. if addictions, drugs, or 'false' brain wiring (psychopaths) prevent the individual from 'following one's own interests rationally' then 'free will' (using the definition of 'being responsible') is severely restricted or non-existent.

  4. #94
    Registered User paperleaves's Avatar
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    I am in complete agreement with billyjack's statement. From an objective standpoint, I know that appearances are reality. No matter how much it is debated, you can deny reality until you're blue in the face, but you cannot deny the repercussions of reality. Therefore, in your beginning statement, when you state that, "The experience of free will is no more than an appearance", the base of your argument is not dealing in realistic terms.

    I am eager to hear your response to this. Thank you!

    Sincerely,
    Kate
    "real
    loneliness
    is not
    necessarily
    limited to
    when
    you are
    alone
    "
    -C. Bukowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by paperleaves View Post
    From an objective standpoint, I know that appearances are reality.
    Though I agree with most everything I have read of you, Kate, I must disagree with you here. Appearances are but a reflection - or shadow type of reality, if you will. True: appearances often enough prove to be the whole reality, but they are quite often misrepresentation, half-truths, facades, et cetera, et cetera...and I am not even speaking of the human appearance; when one starts into that terrain, the individual's argument is built upon shaky ground to say the least.
    "They're just thoughts, so go ahead and speak."

    "We're just a collection of cells overrating
    themselves."

  6. #96
    Registered User swampthing's Avatar
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    Is white america not freedom? Break your back for 60 years then get screwed out of your pension. Thats real modern freedom. Only real freedom comes in a noose or a snog with a gun.

  7. #97
    Such is life I suppose N.W.Alexander's Avatar
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    God is good
    Last edited by N.W.Alexander; 04-18-2010 at 06:41 PM.
    Some books leave us free and some books make us free.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #98
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.W.Alexander View Post
    Ignorance is bliss ... believe it

    Obviously your correct in that freedom in its definition does not exist but to live your pointless life burdened with this so called knowledge is foolishness. One thing that does exist is happiness in its definition the feeling of joy exists. So pursue that. If you want to think about something stupid , Picture the Earth then the moon and earth together the sun now add all the planets you know about then go to the milky way now ask yourself if you really exist then understand that we are not the only solar system but their could be an infinity of solar systems and you have no clue and no way to prove how you came to be or how the entire universe began

    Liberty is set up so that it is as free as humans can be . period . humans cant be perfect neither in thought or in action so they can never be free

    It has nothing to do with conditioning it has to do with intuition
    Perfection can not be attained; for perfection is a process, a movement, progression, an evolutionary idea. Man has been perfecting since his unicellular stage and now man is a complex creature and his evolution through his primal stage, maybe from his animate and inanimate unicellular form to a multi-cellular form today and perfection goes on increasing

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    Perfection can not be attained; for perfection is a process, a movement, progression, an evolutionary idea. Man has been perfecting since his unicellular stage and now man is a complex creature and his evolution through his primal stage, maybe from his animate and inanimate unicellular form to a multi-cellular form today and perfection goes on increasing
    Evolution doesn't strive towards perfection (and man is not the goal of evolution). It's all about adaptation and which genes get pass on the most.

  10. #100
    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    We don't want freedom. We want love. Glorious love...Triuamphant love...and little bit...
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  11. #101
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lote-Tree View Post
    We don't want freedom. We want love. Glorious love...Triuamphant love...and little bit...
    Yes you are right, and love is not a complete state of freedom and there is a series of compromises too in love and we cannot totally enjoy freedom or a sense of individuality when we are stung by love. There is a matter of renunciation, a union in love which cannot synchronize with freedom

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  12. #102
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    I recommend you consult the literature, your whole argument makes no sense so it is hard to counter it.

  13. #103
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    Updating my comments here to say that freedom from material needs will probably never be found, but freedom from sin can be found in Christ Jesus.

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