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Thread: Not Another Book List

  1. #1
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Not Another Book List

    Yes, I am afraid, that is just what it is. As I am sure you have noticed, I love Book lists, but they are so fun, aren't they?

    I happend upon this one on another site and it struck my interest. One of the things I liked about this list is that it is very eclectic. It really does have something for everyone. It spans acorss the bored.

    The list is called 1001 Books to read before you die. Becasue it is quite extensive, I will not attempt to post the list here, but a link where it can be found:

    http://www.listsofbests.com/list/2222

    So what books have you read? Want to read? Any books you think should not be on the list? Or any books that you think should be on the list, but are not?

    I am still working on going through the list and compliling my own list from it.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  2. #2
    Registered User John Goodman's Avatar
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    A lot of books on the list seem to be included solely on popularity and not on any merit but it's still a good list to look through if you're finding yourself without anything to read.

  3. #3
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Ok here is my damage

    Reading:

    Cat's Eye
    by Margaret Atwood

    The Name of the Rose: including Postscript to the Name of the Rose
    by Umberto Eco

    The Jungle (Enriched Classics)
    by Upton Sinclair

    The Ambassadors (Penguin Classics)
    by Henry James

    Kidnapped (Penguin Classics)
    by Robert Louis Stevenson


    Read:

    Middlesex: A Novel
    by Jeffrey Eugenides

    Get Shorty
    by Elmore Leonard

    Billy Bathgate
    by E. L. Doctorow

    The Shining
    by Stephen King

    The Magus
    by JOHN FOWLES

    A Clockwork Orange
    by Anthony Burgess

    Franny and Zooey
    by J.D. Salinger

    Catch 22
    by Joseph Heller

    To Kill a Mockingbird
    by Harper Lee

    Henderson the Rain King (Penguin Classics)
    by Saul Bellow

    Lord of the Flies
    by William Golding

    The Catcher in the Rye
    by J.D. Salinger

    Nineteen Eighty-four (Penguin Modern Classics)
    by George Orwell

    Animal Farm
    by George Orwell

    The Little Prince

    Native Son (Perennial Classics)
    by Richard A. Wright

    The Grapes of Wrath (Centennial Edition)
    by John Steinbeck

    Good Morning, Midnight
    by Jean Rhys

    Of Mice and Men (Penguin Great Books of the 20th Century)
    by John Steinbeck

    A Handful of Dust
    by Evelyn Waugh

    To the Lighthouse (Annotated)
    by Virginia Woolf

    Interview with the Vampire
    by Anne Rice

    Sun Also Rises
    by Ernest Hemingway

    The Great Gatsby
    by F. Scott Fitzgerald

    Billy Budd, Foretopman
    by Herman Melville

    A Passage to India
    by E.M. Forster

    Siddhartha
    by Hermann Hesse

    The Age of Innocence (Modern Library Classics)
    by Edith Wharton

    A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (Penguin Classics)
    by James Joyce

    The Rainbow (Modern Library Classics)
    by D.H. Lawrence

    Sons and Lovers (Signet Classics (Paperback))
    by D.H. Lawrence

    Death in Venice

    The House of Mirth (Signet Classics)
    by Edith Wharton

    Kim (Norton Critical Editions)
    by Rudyard Kipling

    The Turn of the Screw: And Other Short Novels
    by Henry James

    Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde
    by Robert Louis Stevenson

    Treasure Island (Kingfisher Classics)
    by Robert Louis Stevenson

    Anna Karenina (Oprah's Book Club)
    by Leo Tolstoy

    Great Expectations (Penguin Classics)
    by Charles Dickens

    Madame Bovary (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Gustave Flaubert

    The Blithedale Romance (Penguin Classics)
    by Nathaniel Hawthorne

    Jane Eyre (Penguin Classics)
    by Charlotte Brontë

    The Purloined Letter
    by Edgar Allan Poe

    The Pit and the Pendulum
    by Edgar Allan Poe

    The Fall of the House of Usher
    by Edgar Allan Poe

    Pride and Prejudice (Bantam Classics)
    by Jane Austen

    The Classic Treasury of Aesop's Fables (Children's Illustrated Classics)

    Frankenstein (Enriched Classics)
    by Mary Shelley

    Northanger Abbey (Modern Library Classics)
    by Jane Austen

    Persuasion (Penguin Classics)
    by Jane Austen

    Want to read:

    Kafka on the Shore
    by Haruki Murakami

    The God of Small Things
    by Arundhati Roy

    Jack Maggs: A Novel
    by Peter Carey

    The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel
    by Haruki Murakami

    American Psycho
    by Bret Easton Ellis

    Foucault's Pendulum
    by Umberto Eco

    The Handmaid's Tale: A Novel
    by Margaret Atwood

    Petals of Blood
    by Ngugi wa Thiong'o

    Ragtime
    by E. L. Doctorow

    Slaughterhouse-Five
    by KURT VONNEGUT

    The French Lieutenant's Woman
    by John Fowles

    The Green Man
    by Kingsley Amis

    The Godfather (Signet)
    by Mario Puzo

    The Master and Margarita
    by Mikhail Bulgakov

    Wide Sargasso Sea (Norton Paperback Fiction)
    by Jean Rhys

    Bell Jar (P.S.)
    by Sylvia Plath

    On the Road
    by Jack Kerouac

    Lolita
    by Vladimir Nabokov

    The LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST
    by Nikos Kazantzakis

    Brideshead Revisited
    by Evelyn Waugh

    Finnegans Wake (Penguin Twentieth-Century Classics)
    by James Joyce

    TENDER IS THE NIGHT
    by F. Scott Fitzgerald

    Brave New World
    by Aldous Huxley

    The Maltese Falcon
    by Dashiell Hammett

    A Farewell To Arms
    by Ernest Hemingway

    The Last September
    by Elizabeth Bowen

    Lady Chatterley's Lover
    by D.H. LAWRENCE

    Mrs. Dalloway
    by Virginia Woolf

    The Counterfeiters: A Novel
    by Andre Gide

    Ulysses (Vintage International)
    by James Joyce

    Women in Love: Cambridge Lawrence Edition (Penguin Twentieth-Century Classics)
    by D.H. Lawrence

    The Good Soldier: A Tale of Passion (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Ford Madox Ford

    Of Human Bondage (Modern Library Classics)
    by W. Somerset Maugham

    Howards End (Penguin Twentieth-Century Classics,)
    by E. M. Forster

    A Room with a View (Classic)
    by E.M. Forster

    The Golden Bowl (Penguin Classics)
    by Henry James

    The Wings of the Dove (Penguin Classics)
    by Henry James

    Sister Carrie (Signet Classics (Paperback))
    by Theodore Dreiser

    The Invisible Man (Signet Classics)
    by H.G. Wells

    Jude the Obscure (Penguin Classics)
    by Thomas Hardy

    The Picture of Dorian Gray (Modern Library Classics)
    by Oscar Wilde

    The Portrait of a Lady (Penguin Classics)
    by Henry James

    The Brothers Karamazov (Everyman's Library (Cloth))
    by Fyodor Dostoevsky

    The Return of the Native (Modern Library Classics)
    by Thomas Hardy

    War and Peace (Signet Classics (Paperback))
    by Leo Tolstoy

    Crime and Punishment (Bantam Classics)
    by Fyodor Dostoevsky

    Fathers and Sons (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Ivan Turgenev

    The House of the Seven Gables (Norton Critical Edition)
    by Nathaniel Hawthorne

    Wuthering Heights (Penguin Classics)
    by Emily Bronte

    The Count of Monte Cristo (Penguin Classics)
    by Alexandre Dumas père

    The Three Musketeers (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Alexandre Dumas

    Dead Souls
    by Nikolai Gogol

    Emma (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Jane Austen

    Mansfield Park (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Jane Austen

    Sense and Sensibility (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Jane Austen

    The Mysteries of Udolpho (Oxford World's Classics)
    by Ann Radcliffe

    Don't want to read:

    Memoirs of a Geisha: A Novel
    by Arthur Golden

    The Shipping News
    by E. Annie Proulx

    The English Patient
    by Michael Ondaatje

    Love in the Time of Cholera
    by Gabriel Garcia Marquez

    The Cider House Rules
    by John Irving

    The Color Purple
    by Alice Walker

    The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
    by Douglas Adams

    In Cold Blood
    by Truman Capote

    Things Fall Apart: A Novel
    by Chinua Achebe

    Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day
    by Winifred Watson

    Gone with the Wind
    by Margaret Mitchell

    Atonement: A Novel
    by Ian McEwan

    Little Women (Signet Classics)
    by Louisa May Alcott

    Herman Melville's Moby Dick
    by Herman Melville

    Ok, I will say I was dissapointed not to see Tom Robbins listed at all. I think particuarly Still Life With Woodpecker is a must read. Also I think Good Omens should have been mentioned
    Last edited by Dark Muse; 08-23-2008 at 03:21 PM.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  4. #4
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    I doubt the compiler has read much of the list. It seems like a list built out of word-of-mouth and book reviews, rather than scholarship or opinion. It also seems to be a very anglocentric list, and typically American, but then again, all English lists seem to be.

    The most irritating feature though, is its desire to pack all the popular "literary" novels of our generation onto a list, but only count the English ones, specifically around the major prizes, as the Pulitzer and Booker, yet completely ignores contemporary fiction from, not just the east, but also the vast majority of the west, even if the books are translated. The most represented Nobel laureates on the list undoubtedly are English writers, rather than multicultural ones (though the Nobels are clearly not very multicultural themselves), and the only really included books from non-English writers seem to be cliché ones, such as those by Coelho, or Murakami.

    You're better off without a list to be honest; there is no complete list, and there are few very good lists.

  5. #5
    Serious business Taliesin's Avatar
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    I got about 60 books out of that list that I had read - and they tended to be quite good ones. Sure, it is probably biased, has bad choices in it (why do they always include "Catcher in the Rye"?) and too anglocentric, but most of the books that I had read from that list were pretty good and I think that this list will be quite useful for finding books to read. And the lists tend to suck, so by usual standards, I think that this one is quite good - you don't have to take it as The Word of God or anything.
    By the way, I don't think that I have seen "The Dictionary of The Khazars" in any other lists - but it is an amazingly good book, wonderfully avant-garde in it's form - a novel written in the form of a dictionary - you open it at some place, there is an article, you read it, you open another random place, read another random article and it is doesn't harm your understanding of the novel at all. It has been called the first novel of 21st century - while it was written in the middle of 20th century.
    If you believe even a half of this post, you are severely mistaken.

  6. #6
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    I doubt the compiler has read much of the list. It seems like a list built out of word-of-mouth and book reviews, rather than scholarship or opinion. It also seems to be a very anglocentric list, and typically American, but then again, all English lists seem to be.
    ::sighs:: You do realize from the short description of methodology the compiler never claims to have read all the books.

    It specifically says:

    "These works have been handpicked by a team of international critics and literary luminaries, including Derek Attridge (world expert on James Joyce), Cedric Watts (renowned authority on Joseph Conrad and Graham Greene), Laura Marcus (noted Virginia Woolf expert), and David Mariott (poet and expert on African-American literature), among some twenty others."

    So I am trying for the life of me to figure out how you possibly came to the conclusion that the compiler just put this list together through "word-of-mouth" and "book reviews" as opposed to "scholarship" or "opinion."

    Now I am not saying I agree or disagree with the contents of this particular list, but it seems to me if you're just going to find books through reviews and word-of-mouth you don't really need to bring together an entire team of literary experts to select the books, now do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post

    Don't want to read:

    Memoirs of a Geisha: A Novel
    by Arthur Golden

    The Shipping News
    by E. Annie Proulx

    The English Patient
    by Michael Ondaatje

    Love in the Time of Cholera
    by Gabriel Garcia Marquez

    The Cider House Rules
    by John Irving

    The Color Purple
    by Alice Walker

    The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
    by Douglas Adams

    In Cold Blood
    by Truman Capote

    Things Fall Apart: A Novel
    by Chinua Achebe

    Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day
    by Winifred Watson

    Gone with the Wind
    by Margaret Mitchell

    Atonement: A Novel
    by Ian McEwan

    Little Women (Signet Classics)
    by Louisa May Alcott

    Herman Melville's Moby Dick
    by Herman Melville
    Any reason you're not interested in reading those particular novels?
    "You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus

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  7. #7
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drkshadow03 View Post
    ::sighs:: You do realize from the short description of methodology the compiler never claims to have read all the books.

    It specifically says:

    "These works have been handpicked by a team of international critics and literary luminaries, including Derek Attridge (world expert on James Joyce), Cedric Watts (renowned authority on Joseph Conrad and Graham Greene), Laura Marcus (noted Virginia Woolf expert), and David Mariott (poet and expert on African-American literature), among some twenty others."

    So I am trying for the life of me to figure out how you possibly came to the conclusion that the compiler just put this list together through "word-of-mouth" and "book reviews" as opposed to "scholarship" or "opinion."

    Now I am not saying I agree or disagree with the contents of this particular list, but it seems to me if you're just going to find books through reviews and word-of-mouth you don't really need to bring together an entire team of literary experts to select the books, now do you?
    Simply because of the way lists are made. What does a Joseph Conrad expert, or a Joyce expert have anything to do with such a list. They are only experts on their particular niche, and cannot possibly be able to create a solid list of "lifetime" worth dedication. You would need to examine the credentials of every single academic on the team, and then assess them all, sorting out which ones have backgrounds in contemporary, classical, or theoretical literature, and which ones have backgrounds in international, and comparative literature, and specifications on literary in translation, in addition to a knowledge of all available translations, and the availability of said translations, in order to begin to comprehend such a list as this. A Conrad expert, or an African American lit specialist has no real authority in assembling a list of 1001 books for a lifetime.

    As I said before, I doubt the compiler of the list has actually read it, and instead is trying to push a marketing agenda of some sort. Lists such as these create a fallacy regarding scholarly thought, by over-emphasizing the importance of one critic (who very well may be a mediocre critic), and displaying his views as a general consensus amongst all critics, or many critics. For all you know, half the books on the list could only be recommended by one person, or could be recommended to the recommender of books, and not actually be read by the editorial staff.

    Either way, it is 1001 books, and if we remove the classical texts, we are still left with an overabundance of contemporary fiction, which, even if the bulk are great reads, will definitely contain quite a few mediocre period pieces, which, by the time you get to them, will be forgotten, and out of print.

    edit: from googling, ran into this review by The New York Post:
    http://www.nypost.com/seven/07232007...zie_dawson.htm
    But take solace in one thing: Chances are not even the person who wrote the book has actually accomplished all 1,001 things he or she lists.

    "I certainly have not read all these books," says Peter Boxall, author of "1,001 Books You Must Read Before You Die."

    "There is nothing scientific or comprehensive about it. What I wanted to do was generate some enthusiasm about some good books and generate debates about what we read, and why."
    Last edited by JBI; 08-23-2008 at 07:34 PM.

  8. #8
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I must agree that this is a rather crappy list purporting to represent the 1001 books you must read before you die. Out of 1000+ books over 700 of the most essential books were written since 1900? Really? Beyond this, as JBI notes, the list is Anglophile in the extreme... with a few obvious exceptions. The worst aspect of this list, to my mind, is that while it is sold to us as the 1001 books we must read before we die, it seems as if only novels need apply. The fact that there is no Dante, Homer, Milton, or Shakespeare is enough to immediately dismiss this list from serious consideration. No poetry... no theater... no essay... no philosophy... no spiritual texts... I find it amazing that this list was compiled by supposed literary "experts". Straight to the circular file with this one.
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  9. #9
    Bibliophile Drkshadow03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Simply because of the way lists are made. What does a Joseph Conrad expert, or a Joyce expert have anything to do with such a list. They are only experts on their particular niche, and cannot possibly be able to create a solid list of "lifetime" worth dedication. You would need to examine the credentials of every single academic on the team, and then assess them all, sorting out which ones have backgrounds in contemporary, classical, or theoretical literature, and which ones have backgrounds in international, and comparative literature, and specifications on literary in translation, in addition to a knowledge of all available translations, and the availability of said translations, in order to begin to comprehend such a list as this. A Conrad expert, or an African American lit specialist has no real authority in assembling a list of 1001 books for a lifetime.

    As I said before, I doubt the compiler of the list has actually read it, and instead is trying to push a marketing agenda of some sort. Lists such as these create a fallacy regarding scholarly thought, by over-emphasizing the importance of one critic (who very well may be a mediocre critic), and displaying his views as a general consensus amongst all critics, or many critics. For all you know, half the books on the list could only be recommended by one person, or could be recommended to the recommender of books, and not actually be read by the editorial staff.

    Either way, it is 1001 books, and if we remove the classical texts, we are still left with an overabundance of contemporary fiction, which, even if the bulk are great reads, will definitely contain quite a few mediocre period pieces, which, by the time you get to them, will be forgotten, and out of print.
    First, because Conrad experts or Woolf experts aren't ONLY experts on a single author. Most people when they have an expertise on a particular author generally are experts in that entire period, region, movement of literature. Usually when they say that all it means is they happened to write a lot about that particular author. The same goes for someone like Bloom who has his expertise in Romanticism; you seem to have no problem quoting his list.

    No doubt all lists have biases since everything has a bias. In all honesty, I've never seen a list put forth by a critic or expert yet that I think is all that whacky or out there. First off because half of them have the same titles from list to list anyway, secondly no two lists are the same (you just need to identify what the critera was in forming the list and what the biases might be). In this case, quickly looking at the expertise of the scholars we do get it shouldn't surprise anyone that there is a 20th and 21st century bias.

    Certainly no list should be taken as complete in and of itself; however, I really don't see much of a difference between finding titles through some professor's online syllabus (which you recommended doing in the past I believe) or going to the top 100 novels or 1001 books you must read before you die list put forth by a group of Ph. Ds or other selected experts. After all, if some scholars are better than others how exactly is one supposed to tell that whether they are looking at a list or a syllabus online? No doubt the class will reflect the scholar's expertise, so it must be good, except there are plenty of professors who have an expertise in the field that are mediocre at best, which still doesn't solve that problem. Also, expertise in literature can extend beyond your field of speciality; I've talked with enough professors and been over their houses enough during grad school parties to know that most professors are extremely well-read inside and outside their areas of interest. If Bloom can do it I imagine there are plenty of others who can too.

    Really it's just a matter of knowing this isn't the end all and be all of lists, but it might be worth checking out a few titles. It's for fun and ideas.
    Last edited by Drkshadow03; 08-23-2008 at 08:36 PM.
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  10. #10
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drkshadow03 View Post
    Any reason you're not interested in reading those particular novels?
    The majority of them I do not wish to read because what I have heard about them does not appeal to my personal interest, and list or no list I never would have considered reading them.

    It is nothing against the books or a statement of the quality of the books, but rather a personal choice based on what I know of the subject matter of the books.

    A few of them on the list are books which were made into the movies, the movies of which I did not care for or was not interested in seeing, and though I know books do not often translate well into movies, if the movie does not interest me it is not going to inspire me to want to read the book.

    Memoirs of a Geisha: A Novel is an exception. I actually really enjoyed the movie, but my sister read the book, before the movie came out, and she gave it a very bad review. We share similar taste in books, and tend to like many of the same things, so I trusted her opinion and thought not to waste my time attempting to read the book after what she said.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  11. #11
    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Yes, I am afraid, that is just what it is. As I am sure you have noticed, I love Book lists, but they are so fun, aren't they?
    They are fun!!! I like lists too, it gives me ideas and sometimes turns me on to books I wouldn't ordinarily try.

    I've only been able to look at the first few pages so far.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


  12. #12
    Registered User thelastmelon's Avatar
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    This is not only a list, but a book, that I happen to own.

  13. #13
    I'm not a great one for lists but as I joined this Forum to learn what other people enjoy and get some pointers towards new authors that I might enjoy, I say 'Thanks, DM, for some more source material!' I think I am up to date on what constitutes the Classic Books, in Eng Lit, American Lit and some European Lits (available in English translation at any rate) - what I am out of date on is contemporary writing (due to too many years spent with my head down in a line of work where books were very low on a list of priorities - only must-read was The Engineer and very interesting it was too!) so I find it useful to know what I am looking at in libraries and bookshops.

    DM - I see Mrs Dalloway is on your 'to read' list - do try this soon - I think from your posts it's a book you will really enjoy. I've just read Atonement - enjoyed it and feel many readers have missed a vital point, so don't dismiss it just yet. And couldn't you spare a week-end for Hitchhiker's Guide? I still find it Laugh Out Loud funny even years after first hearing it on the radio. (Oh, that dates me!)

  14. #14
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    I myself haven't in the past read much contempary, and many of the contempary works on the list I haven't even heard of, though thanks to sites like this one and others that are simillar I am getting more up to date on contempary and I have one occsaion read af few.

    But most of what I read tends to either be Classical, Histrocial Fiction, Fantasy, or Horror.

    Though I do love Tom Robbins who is a contempary writer, even if he is shamefully left off of this list. And I am getting into reading Margret Atwood. And there are a few other contmepary works I am getting into reading.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  15. #15
    Purple Faerie lyricalfaerie's Avatar
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    Smile

    Besides the ones that I have apparently never heard of, here is my list:
    Have read:
    Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden
    The Shining by Stephen King
    The Once and Future King by T. H. White
    The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien
    Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison
    Animal Farm by George Orwell
    The Little Prince (I actually read this one in French)
    The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien
    Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell
    A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway
    The Invisible Man by H.G. Wells
    Bram Stoker's Dracula
    The Time Machine by H.G. Wells
    The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
    Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain
    Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson
    The Portrait of a Lady by Henry James
    Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
    Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
    The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne
    The Pit and the Pendulum by Edgar Allen Poe
    A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens
    The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Victor Hugo
    Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
    Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen
    Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift
    Tales from the Thousand and One Nights

    Am reading:
    Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen
    Emma by Jane Austen
    Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens
    Nicholas Nickleby by Charles Dickens
    Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë
    Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë
    David Copperfield by Charles Dickens
    Bleak House by Charles Dickens
    Hard Times by Charles Dickens
    Great Expectations by Charles Dickens
    Little Women by Louisa May Alcott
    A Passage to India by E.M. Forster

    Want to Read: Too many to even begin to list

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