Poe Short Story Discussion Group

[Dark Muse]

I would in vain attempt to portray the majesty, the quiet ease, of her demeanor, or the incomprehensible lightness and elasticity of her footfall. She came and departed as a shadow. I was never made aware of her entrance into my closed study save by the dear music of her low sweet voice, as she placed her marble hand upon my shoulder

The description of Ligeia is quite interesting, and whether you view Ligeia as being a mortal woman when he first met her, or something more, it is clear it was Poe's intent to put the idea of some spiritual being, some phantom, into the mind of the reader. It is suggested. And I do not think it is purely just the way in which she is viewed by the devoted love of her husband. I think it was Poe's intent to make the reader question and to wonder.

There is the fact that she moves through the house almost like a ghost. He cannot distinguish the sound of her foot fall, and she "departs as the shdows"

As well I always found this description to be quite currious

as she placed her marble hand upon my shoulder

Of course no one could truly be that pale, this is a suggestion of death itself. For not only does it give the image of the complete lack of any color, flesh and blood, but also the idea of something cold and flawless.

In beauty of face no maiden ever equalled her. It was the radiance of an opium-dream --an airy and spirit-lifting vision more wildly divine than the phantasies which hovered vision about the slumbering souls of the daughters of Delos.

Poe very deliberately begins to drop the line opium here and implant that idea into the story, for what is to follow next. And we have more allusions to Ligeia being something more than human.

Yet, although I saw that the features of Ligeia were not of a classic regularity --although I perceived that her loveliness was indeed "exquisite," and felt that there was much of "strangeness" pervading it, yet I have tried in vain to detect the irregularity and to trace home my own perception of "the strange."

I always found this part of the story to be very interesting. That strangeness about her that cannot be quite explained. I do not think that is a normal thought or recaction for even the most ardent lover to have. To find something continually preplexing about the apperence of the loved one.

I examined the contour of the lofty and pale forehead --it was faultless --how cold indeed that word when applied to a majesty so divine! --the skin rivalling the purest ivory, the commanding extent and repose, the gentle prominence of the regions above the temples; and then the raven-black, the glossy, the luxuriant and naturally-curling tresses, setting forth the full force of the Homeric epithet, "hyacinthine!"

Though of course I am not suggesting at all, that Ligeia is a vampire, but do you not find this dipection of her to be in the mode of the classic vampire? The flawless beauty with ivory skin, and raven hair.

There are some interesting things in the next paragraph that continue on about her apperance that I will address in a little while.

I found this currious Homeric epithet, "hyacinthine!" and was not at first sure what was meant by it, but I did some research and apprently was a way to refer to long hair.

[Arwenstar]

Hi everybody!

I'm also a great fan of Edgar Allan Poe. Now I'm faced with a big question about one of his short stories which really impressed me...The title of the story is the Pit and the Pendulum. It's one of my fave story, it was really scary and mysterious( I like stories about the cruelty of spanish inquisitors). My question about this story is that what was in the pit?. Probably it's not that important but I was really scared when read the author's reactions when he saw the content of the pit, though he didn't not tell what was in it. I'm really curious what could be there. I thought that there were rats but I'm not sure. What do you think?

PS: Sorry, my English is not the best! (I'm from Romania)

[Dark Muse]

I would have to go back and take another look at that story. It has been a while sense I have read that one.

[LC_Lancer]

I do not mean to back track, but I missed the discussion on the narrator not being able to recall Legia's last name.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09-06-2008 at 08:48 PM:
“a woman's intelligence being ranked higher above a mans is not a common occurrence”

You are right, but that is a shortcoming that we may never overcome. Even today, women tend to ‘marry up’ (in all categories). In the 1830's, it was extremely rare that a wife would be more educated that the husband.
Back to Ligeia, if a woman were to be so educated that any man’s education would be beneath her, then she would need to ‘marry down’. Since the narrator has shown not to possess the greatest decision making skills, then she might be the one who took care of him when she was alive.
For example:

“the acquisitions of Ligeia were gigantic, were astounding; yet I was sufficiently aware of her infinite supremacy to resign myself, with a child-like confidence,”

If he yielded to her in the “metaphysical investigation”, he could have easily let her take control of other aspects of his life. If that is the case, then the narrator would feel an ‘ethereal’ love for Ligeia and view her with heavenly beauty. He most certainly wanted the relationship to be ‘eternal’.
This may be the reason why he married again; he wanted someone to take care of him.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09-07-2008 at 12:27 AM
Than again, just becasue she told him about her family, does not mean she ever gave him thier name… He would not have to know thier name for her to tell him stories about them.”

Here, here. I agree 110%.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09-07-2008 at , 03:22 AM
I am not sure if I am convinved that quote is meant to imply he was not listening, as there are many other things he does not remember and he states at the begining how feeble his memory is, I am inclined to think, that is but another thing he simply can no longer recall.

I agree, DM. I think he did listen to her. I think the time, drug, and shabby mind all contributed to his not recalling her name. Remember, he is telling us this story after the conclusion so you cannot rule out stress as a factor of his not remembering. This may also be the reason why he paints her in such glowing terms. The roughness of her memories has eroded away. If he cannot remember her name, then he most certainly would not remember her entering the chamber.

from Ligeia
And now, while I write, a recollection flashes upon me that I have never known the paternal name of her who was my friend and my betrothed, and who became the partner of my studies, and finally the wife of my bosom

My question: does this sound like remorse to anyone else? Why else would he go on with the description in the rest of the sentence?

Poe often hides the name of the object of his affection (various reasons have been suggested) and does not want some stories to be shackled in a certain time or place. Ligeia’s name is not given to us on purpose. It could be that he does not want the reader to concentrate on the details or he may have wanted it to add to the mystery of the story.

[Dark Muse]

Back to Ligeia, if a woman were to be so educated that any man’s education would be beneath her, then she would need to ‘marry down’. Since the narrator has shown not to possess the greatest decision making skills, then she might be the one who took care of him when she was alive.
For example: If he yielded to her in the “metaphysical investigation”, he could have easily let her take control of other aspects of his life. If that is the case, then the narrator would feel an ‘ethereal’ love for Ligeia and view her with heavenly beauty. He most certainly wanted the relationship to be ‘eternal’.
This may be the reason why he married again; he wanted someone to take care of him

This depends upon what you mean by "marrying down" as that term is usually one applied to marrying beneath ones social status. And though we do not know Ligeia's family history, we know she was well edcuated, but even that is meant to be wrapped within mystery. We do not know that her marraige was in fact a step down in status for her. Though he may have been more docile and submissive to her, and allowed her to take control of the asepcts of his life. We learn later when he marries Rowena, he was quite wealthy and thus he was not dependent upon Ligeia. I would say he would be at least equal, if not above her social standing.

It is also notewrothy that he does not appear to truly "do" anything. He has time to dedicate to study. So to be finically well off without having to work is a sign of his social status.

I agree, DM. I think he did listen to her. I think the time, drug, and shabby mind all contributed to his not recalling her name. Remember, he is telling us this story after the conclusion so you cannot rule out stress as a factor of his not remembering. This may also be the reason why he paints her in such glowing terms. The roughness of her memories has eroded away. If he cannot remember her name, then he most certainly would not remember her entering the chamber.

That is a good point. I had not quite thought of it that way before. It could be that it is his feeble memory which erases in his mind any flaws she may have had. In fact in a way it is almost as if he is describing her than, as he would imagine her as angel. It could be with his feeble memory, drug use, and grief and love of her, within his account of the story, he is merging the true Ligeia, and perhaps how he invisions her in death, together.

My question: does this sound like remorse to anyone else? Why else would he go on with the description in the rest of the sentence?

It is true, that line does sound like one which could be a wail of greif.

Poe often hides the name of the object of his affection (various reasons have been suggested) and does not want some stories to be shackled in a certain time or place. Ligeia’s name is not given to us on purpose. It could be that he does not want the reader to concentrate on the details or he may have wanted it to add to the mystery of the story.

Yes that is true, Poe did not often place his stories in a real place or time. In fact in some of his stories he acutally censors himself. He will leave dates and names blank. This does help increase the mystery of Ligeia by leaving her past vauge as well it allows the reader to put thier own imgination to work, instead of having it all spelled out for them.

[LC_Lancer]

This depends upon what you mean by "marrying down" as that term is usually one applied to marrying beneath ones social status.

I meant all categroies; education, wealth, social status, height,...

We learn later when he marries Rowena, he was quite wealthy and thus he was not dependent upon Ligeia. I would say he would be at least equal, if not above her social standing.

He could have been made wealthy by Ligeia death. Being her husband, he might have inherited her furtune.

It is also notewrothy that he does not appear to truly "do" anything. He has time to dedicate to study. So to be finically well off without having to work is a sign of his social status.

I agree. The only indication of him 'doing something' is rebuilding the abbey for livable housing in England.

This does help increase the mystery of Ligeia by leaving her past vauge as well it allows the reader to put thier own imgination to work, instead of having it all spelled out for them.

I think it adds to the mystery of the entire story. No one will ever know if he made it up, or borrowed some of the parts of the story from real life. The reader cannot simply look up the information. They must accept, or reject, the story itself on it own merits.

[Dark Muse]

For eyes we have no models in the remotely antique. It might have been, too, that in these eves of my beloved lay the secret to which Lord Verulam alludes. They were, I must believe, far larger than the ordinary eyes of our own race. They were even fuller than the fullest of the gazelle eyes of the tribe of the valley of Nourjahad.

The attention that is given to her eyes I find quite interesting within this story, as the eyes have long held a certain connection with the spirit world. "The eyes are the window of the soul"

There has always been a certain mystery, enchantment, power, wrapped around eyes.

in moments of intense excitement --that this peculiarity became more than slightly noticeable in Ligeia. And at such moments was her beauty --in my heated fancy thus it appeared perhaps --the beauty of beings either above or apart from the earth --the beauty of the fabulous Houri of the Turk. The hue of the orbs was the most brilliant of black, and, far over them, hung jetty lashes of great length. The brows, slightly irregular in outline, had the same tint. The "strangeness," however, which I found in the eyes, was of a nature distinct from the formation, or the color, or the brilliancy of the features, and must, after all, be referred to the expression.

In his previous discussion about Ligeia's beauty he makes a reference to that something off about her, that something strange that he cannot quite place. Here again it is currious that it seems the focus of that unatural quality of her beauty is within her eyes.

The expression of the eyes of Ligeia! How for long hours have I pondered upon it! How have I, through the whole of a midsummer night, struggled to fathom it! What was it --that something more profound than the well of Democritus --which lay far within the pupils of my beloved? What was it? I was possessed with a passion to discover. Those eyes! those large, those shining, those divine orbs! they became to me twin stars of Leda, and I to them devoutest of astrologers.

Her eyes are portrayed almost as a sort of abysss, particuarly with their complete blackness, and the way in which he seems to get lost within them, and the reference to the well. It is this neverending voice, in which he looks within.

[LC_Lancer]

they became to me twin stars of Leda, and I to them devoutest of astrologers.

I found these reference to Leda:
***Leda is the ninth of Jupiter's moons and is the smallest.
***In Greek mythology, Polydeuces is another name for Pollux, twin brother of Castor, son of Zeus and Leda. Zeus seduced Leda while in the form of a swan.
Upon further study:

Gemini represents the twins Castor and Polydeuces (Pollux is the Latin form of his name); they were known to the Greeks as the Dioscuri, literally meaning ‘sons of Zeus’. However, mythologists disputed whether both really were sons of Zeus, because of the unusual circumstances of their birth. Their mother was Leda, Queen of Sparta, whom Zeus visited one day in the form of a swan (now represented by the constellation Cygnus). That same night she also slept with her husband, King Tyndareus. Both unions were fruitful, for Leda subsequently gave birth to four children. In the most commonly accepted version, Polydeuces and Helen (later to become famous as Helen of Troy) were children of Zeus, and hence immortal, while Castor and Clytemnestra were fathered by Tyndareus, and hence were mortal.

The two brightest stars in the constellation, marking the heads of the twins, are named Castor and Pollux. Astronomers have found that Castor is actually a complex system of six stars linked by gravity, although to the eye they appear as one. Pollux is an orange giant star. Unlike the twins that they represent, the stars Castor and Pollux are not related since they lie at different distances from us.
http://www.ianridpath.com/startales/gemini.htm

I think it is interesting that the stars themselves have a depth that, at first is not detectable. When I found that there were other stars around Castor, my first thought was “Ligeia must have been like that to him.” She had such brightness on the surface and more to her the longer he studied her.

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/10/08 at 02:38 PM
Her eyes are portrayed almost as a sort of abysss, particuarly with their complete blackness, and the way in which he seems to get lost within them…

I knew a pair of eyes like these once (and only once) in my life. She was also a striking beauty with ‘strange’ proportions.

[Dark Muse]

Thank you for that infomation about Leda it is quite interesting. This story is so full of Greek Mythology.

[Dark Muse]

If anyone still has something to say regaruding the discription of Ligeia, you are free to post your thoughts and coments on that, but I am going to be posting the next section of the story for discussion.

There is a bit more about her apperence within the next portion of the story, but it also begins to speak of Ligeia herself, not just her physcial discription, as she is seen in the eyes of her beloved.

There is no point, among the many incomprehensible anomalies of the science of mind, more thrillingly exciting than the fact --never, I believe, noticed in the schools --that, in our endeavors to recall to memory something long forgotten, we often find ourselves upon the very verge of remembrance, without being able, in the end, to remember. And thus how frequently, in my intense scrutiny of Ligeia's eyes, have I felt approaching the full knowledge of their expression --felt it approaching --yet not quite be mine --and so at length entirely depart! And (strange, oh strangest mystery of all!) I found, in the commonest objects of the universe, a circle of analogies to theat expression. I mean to say that, subsequently to the period when Ligeia's beauty passed into my spirit, there dwelling as in a shrine, I derived, from many existences in the material world, a sentiment such as I felt always aroused within me by her large and luminous orbs. Yet not the more could I define that sentiment, or analyze, or even steadily view it. I recognized it, let me repeat, sometimes in the survey of a rapidly-growing vine --in the contemplation of a moth, a butterfly, a chrysalis, a stream of running water. I have felt it in the ocean; in the falling of a meteor. I have felt it in the glances of unusually aged people. And there are one or two stars in heaven --(one especially, a star of the sixth magnitude, double and changeable, to be found near the large star in Lyra) in a telescopic scrutiny of which I have been made aware of the feeling. I have been filled with it by certain sounds from stringed instruments, and not unfrequently by passages from books. Among innumerable other instances, I well remember something in a volume of Joseph Glanvill, which (perhaps merely from its quaintness --who shall say?) never failed to inspire me with the sentiment; --"And the will therein lieth, which dieth not. Who knoweth the mysteries of the will, with its vigor? For God is but a great will pervading all things by nature of its intentness. Man doth not yield him to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through the weakness of his feeble will."

Length of years, and subsequent reflection, have enabled me to trace, indeed, some remote connection between this passage in the English moralist and a portion of the character of Ligeia. An intensity in thought, action, or speech, was possibly, in her, a result, or at least an index, of that gigantic volition which, during our long intercourse, failed to give other and more immediate evidence of its existence. Of all the women whom I have ever known, she, the outwardly calm, the ever-placid Ligeia, was the most violently a prey to the tumultuous vultures of stern passion. And of such passion I could form no estimate, save by the miraculous expansion of those eyes which at once so delighted and appalled me --by the almost magical melody, modulation, distinctness and placidity of her very low voice --and by the fierce energy (rendered doubly effective by contrast with her manner of utterance) of the wild words which she habitually uttered.

[LC_Lancer]

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 09/07/08 at 12:01 PM
It is interesting the way in which Poe weaves Greek lore, among other things into this story. It adds to the occult like mood which he is trying to set around Ligeia. So that the reader does question the true meaning of the ending of the story.

Maybe. Maybe not. It may have been a technique used by Poe so the readers could register the beauty of Ligeia using literature that they already know. Or if they had not yet read that piece of literature, then they could look it up themselves. The readers in 1838 did not have as much electronic distractions as we do now.

It could have been a way to show the reader that the narrator was in fact educated as well. How else could he know “the secret to which Lord Verulam alludes” unless he has read, discussed, or seen it for himself. I am convinced that the narrator is educated so the description of Ligeia is only complete when you research the works that he sites.

I agree that Poe does use foreshadow very well in some stories, but in other stories it is kept to a minimum.

[Dark Muse]

It may be that Poe used these refernces for other reasons, such as you have mentioned above, but considering how the story ended you cannot deny that when he mentions things like

Democritus who suggested that matter cannot be destroyed but simply changes form; therefore space is 'a bottomless well'.

"The History of Nourjahad", by Frances Sheridan, in which the main character, Nourjahad, wishes to become immortal

and the daughters of Delos, who are each given powers for transformation

that, he was not intending to weave some mystery, and make some suggestions of the occult within the story.

These were deliberate references that refer directly to what happens within the story itself, not just ways of comparing the beuaty of Ligeia.

[LC_Lancer]

Originally Posted by Dark Muse on 9/11/08 at 03:09 PM
It may be that Poe used these refernces for other reasons, such as you have mentioned above, but considering how the story ended you cannot deny that when he mentions things like … that, he was not intending to weave some mystery, and make some suggestions of the occult within the story.
These were deliberate references that refer directly to what happens within the story itself, not just ways of comparing the beuaty of Ligeia.

I agree with you and I will deny nothing when it comes to Poe's work or his genius.

When you consider a quote from the very first post of this thread that, according to Poe, “the author must compose the story with the conclusion, or denouement, constantly in mind”, the references he used take on different meanings. I am sure he placed these references on purpose.

I was trying to indicate that the purpose was two (or even three) fold. I think he wanted to create a picture of Ligeia in the readers' eye AND foreshadow the end of the story AND show the reader he was educated AND set a mood for the story.

By his own words, he knew the ending that he wanted to create from the very first page so he needed these references to pull multiple duties.

[Dark Muse]

There is no point, among the many incomprehensible anomalies of the science of mind, more thrillingly exciting than the fact --never, I believe, noticed in the schools --that, in our endeavors to recall to memory something long forgotten, we often find ourselves upon the very verge of remembrance, without being able, in the end, to remember

Here is another reference to his memory, and his lack of ablity to recall certain events which happen within the story which he is telling. And considering would proceedes after this, it is worthy to note, the way sometimes the mind has of filling things in for itself, when one cannot remember ezactly how it was, the mind will create its own picture for it.

I mean to say that, subsequently to the period when Ligeia's beauty passed into my spirit, there dwelling as in a shrine, I derived, from many existences in the material world, a sentiment such as I felt always aroused within me by her large and luminous orbs.

He has a very strong fixation on the eyes of Ligeia, and here it is interesting the use of the word obrs in which to describe. Also his reference to spirit, and shrine, suggest the way in which he does truly worship Ligeia.

I recognized it, let me repeat, sometimes in the survey of a rapidly-growing vine --in the contemplation of a moth, a butterfly, a chrysalis, a stream of running water. I have felt it in the ocean; in the falling of a meteor. I have felt it in the glances of unusually aged people.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this currious passage?

And there are one or two stars in heaven --(one especially, a star of the sixth magnitude, double and changeable, to be found near the large star in Lyra) in a telescopic scrutiny of which I have been made aware of the feeling. I have been filled with it by certain sounds from stringed instruments, and not unfrequently by passages from books. Among innumerable other instances, I well remember something in a volume of Joseph Glanvill, which (perhaps merely from its quaintness --who shall say?) never failed to inspire me with the sentiment; --"And the will therein lieth, which dieth not. Who knoweth the mysteries of the will, with its vigor? For God is but a great will pervading all things by nature of its intentness. Man doth not yield him to the angels, nor unto death utterly, save only through the weakness of his feeble will."

Here he tries to put into words, to make the reader understand just how he felt for Ligiea to describe the full force of his love, which was the untangeable, and the feeling which cannot be named. By comparing her to the stars, and the sound of music, he is putting her on an almost heavenly plain. There are no words for how he feels for Ligeia.

[LC_Lancer]

I recognized it, let me repeat, sometimes in the survey of a rapidly-growing vine --in the contemplation of a moth, a butterfly, a chrysalis, a stream of running water. I have felt it in the ocean; in the falling of a meteor. I have felt it in the glances of unusually aged people.

Asked by Dark Muse:
Does anyone have any thoughts on this currious passage?

My thoughts are the things he listed is of things that change without changing.
I think he is saying that he has changed, but his love/admiration/worship of Ligeia does not change. It might have grown, but not changed.
Because of his love, she might change, but his love is constant. We have heard many times people compare love to a river, but this is the first time I heard it compared to an insect, the elderly, and vegetables growing.