Poe Short Story Discussion Group

[Dark Muse]

I could not disagree more. Yes, he is a writer of horror and romantic literature. All of them have at their base a reality that began with him. Poe, the writer, the person who sat down and put pen to paper wrote fantastic stories as a realist.

To that I will just say, appernetly you have not read some of his more absurd stories. Not everything he writes can be as easily explained has having some realistic outcome as this one. The story Ligeia, does offer the rational out of writing it off as an opium dream. But he has written some stuff that really streaches the bounds of reason and reality fare more than this one.

He knew his readers. He knew what the readers would find believable and what things they would reject. Because he was centered in reality when he wrote, the stories and poems have an even MORE horrific and surreal feel. Poe, the writer, is the bridge between reality and the surreal.

Yes it is true that he knew his audience, and yet, one thing a person must be careful of doing is trying to apply what a person might accept or might not accept as believable today, compared to what the people in the 1800's would accept as believable.

Even with emerging ideas, technology, philosophy, knowledge, it was still not an age that was completely free of superstition and a more ready acceptance and belief in things that are more readily denied today.

The knowledge of Ligeia could be explained by her parents’ influence as well as travels around the world. Or just that the narrator sees her knowledge as “beyond just…normal” because he views her that way; beyond normal.

I think you are trying to over-simplify Poe in someways. Even if Ligeia is indeed meant to be flesh and blood, I do think that the mystery is insereted in thier on purpose, I think Poe would have intentially made allusisions to the occult.

I think to say that everything that suggests the "supernatural" in the story can be reduced down to nothing more than the blind idol worshipe of the narrator, than it is in fact not giving Poe enough cridit for his story and it is trying to hug too tightly to rationality.

Even Horror stories that have grounds in reality, step outside the line to build suspesne.

[LC_Lancer]

To that I will just say, appernetly you have not read some of his more absurd stories.

I have read some of his other stories that I wondered what he was trying to convey to the reader. Each story reflects his very active imagination.

I think you are trying to over-simplify Poe in someways.

I do not think so. Poe was a complicated man, but it is oversimplifying to say that “The story Ligeia, does offer the rational out of writing it off as an opium dream” and fails to see Poe as a deep storyteller interested in many things, including the occult. Besides, it has not been proven that he actually used the stuff. Poe had to be in his write (pun intended) mind to put together a coherent and believable story. He referenced several other writers in the story. I think the story came from his imagination with a few dashes of reality throw in.

I do think that the mystery is insereted in thier on purpose, I think Poe would have intentially made allusisions to the occult.

I agree with this. I think it was inserted intentionally to create uncertainty in the readers’ mind. Even if he did not want the read to take the story literally, Poe would still have to know what would be acceptable to his readers. I was trying to indicate that Poe himself needed to write from the realist point of view to begin the story and keep the ending he wanted in mind, then (during the editing stage) he could allow his personally to interweave in the story. Remember, at this time Poe was living in Philadelphia with Virginia (and his aunt). He was concerned about Virginia’s education and also liked to hear her sing. Both attitudes revealed itself in the story. All I’m saying it that some of Poe’s concerns and fears (ok a lot of his fears) show up in his stories and he could not have done that if he was high on opium or not in a ‘realist’ mindset when he wrote it.

I think to say that everything that suggests the "supernatural" in the story can be reduced down to nothing more than the blind idol worshipe of the narrator....

I was trying to say that Poe’s description of Ligeia mirrors his own feelings for Virginia. IF you look at my words again, I used the words “could have been”. It was another interpretation of his works. Most of the discussion I have had with others regarding Poe as centered on the case where he actually lived the stories and not imagined them. If he lived them, then the opium dream would be the end of the discussion.

[Dark Muse]

I do agree that Poe but a lot of his own fears in much of his writing, though I do not think his writing was intended to by quite as rational as you seem to be trying to make it.

I am a bit confused by some of your arguments below.

I do not think so. Poe was a complicated man, but it is oversimplifying to say that “The story Ligeia, does offer the rational out of writing it off as an opium dream” and fails to see Poe as a deep storyteller interested in many things, including the occult.

I was trying to say that Poe’s description of Ligeia mirrors his own feelings for Virginia. IF you look at my words again, I used the words “could have been”. It was another interpretation of his works. Most of the discussion I have had with others regarding Poe as centered on the case where he actually lived the stories and not imagined them. If he lived them, then the opium dream would be the end of the discussion.

Here you seem to be aruging against the fact that the ending of the story was an Opium dream, and yet from the very beginning I had thought your stance was that Ligeia was a real flesh and blood person.

If you are taking a rational stance on the story, and if you beleive Ligeia truly exsisted, than how was the ending possible if not by opium?

You seem to be aruging against yourself now.

If you will recall, at the beigning of this debate, my stance was not that Ligeia was an opisum dream, but that she was a phantom, or a ghost, who was brought into the flesh through the body of Rowena. I have been viewing the story from a more supernatual stance, while you have been looking at it from a more rational place.

I was trying to indicate that Poe himself needed to write from the realist point of view to begin the story and keep the ending he wanted in mind, then (during the editing stage) he could allow his personally to interweave in the story. Remember, at this time Poe was living in Philadelphia with Virginia (and his aunt). He was concerned about Virginia’s education and also liked to hear her sing. Both attitudes revealed itself in the story. All I’m saying it that some of Poe’s concerns and fears (ok a lot of his fears) show up in his stories and he could not have done that if he was high on opium or not in a ‘realist’ mindset when he wrote it.

I think you are starting to get Poe the man mixed up too much with the narrator of the story, who is not Poe himself even if Poe put some of his own experinces within the story. The story is still a work of fiction.

I have said nothing at all to suggest that Poe the man had used opiuim of that he was writing while he was high.

But you cannot deny that the narrator within Ligeia, had in fact turned to Opium as he states that he has.

In the excitement of my opium dreams (for I was habitually fettered in the shackles of the drug)

The person telling us the story about Ligeia clearly has turned to Opium, but this does not mean that Poe himself used it, and I am not suggesting such. I think you need to seperate Poe a little more from the storyteller of this story.

[LC_Lancer]

(Originally by Dark Muse)
“I do agree that Poe but a lot of his own fears in much of his writing, though I do not think his writing was intended to by quite as rational as you seem to be trying to make it.”

I am not trying to make the entire story rational, just the beginning. And that includes the narrator’s “hero-worship” of Ligeia. This story can only be viewed as rational if you take the narrator at his word. However, that word is circumspect due to the fact that he loved Ligeia and began using opium.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
”I am a bit confused by some of your arguments below.”
”Here you seem to be aruging against the fact that the ending of the story was an Opium dream, and yet from the very beginning I had thought your stance was that Ligeia was a real flesh and blood person.”

Those are both my stances. I do believe that Ligeia was a real woman who moved thru doors not walls. AND I think the ending was not an opium dream. I believe the ghost of Ligeia did return to haunt the chambers of the narrator and Lady Rowena. I also believe that Ligeia found a way to posses the body of Rowena, either out of revenge or love. I am sorry for the confusion.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
”If you are taking a rational stance on the story, and if you beleive Ligeia truly exsisted, than how was the ending possible if not by opium?”

Great question, Dark Muse. I believe the ending was not due to opium. It can be explained two ways: the narrator’s love of Ligeia or by the actual haunting of Ligeia of the narrator and Lady Rowena. If it is the former, then Poe is a romantic. If it is the ladder, then Poe is a master of the horror and romance.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
”my stance was not that Ligeia was an opisum dream, but that she was a phantom, or a ghost, who was brought into the flesh through the body of Rowena.”

Yes, I agree, but only with the slight twist on your idea. Ligeia was person at the beginning of the story that the narrator loved deeply and she him. She loved him so much that returned from the “supernatural” world to make sure his new wife as good to him. Unfortunately for both of them, Lady Rowena was not.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
“I have been viewing the story from a more supernatual stance, while you have been looking at it from a more rational place.”

This we can agree on. I looked at the beginning of the story as rational to set the stage of the later half of the story which takes a right turn at rational and heads straight to supernatural. In my opinion, a GREAT and a BRILLIANT turn.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
”I think you are starting to get Poe the man mixed up too much with the narrator of the story, who is not Poe himself”

Never. Edgar Allen Poe was a master of storytelling and pulls the reader into this fictional world then refuses to let go until the very end. Poe used “some of his own experinces within the story” and even let’s us see how he viewed women. Poe does not becomes the narrator, but our guide. We see what he wants us to see. We hear what he wants us to hear. We read what he wants us to read. A writer must write about things he knows. I feel the description of Ligeia and the narrator’s feelings toward her are those Poe had for Mrs. Allan, Mrs. Clemm, and Virginia. With that said, I do not believe that Poe actually experienced his first wife returning to haunt his second wife. I believe that Poe was letting his imagination loose on the story (Yes, I know it was a work of fiction) and even put in some references to other worlds to help create the mood, tone, and setting.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
”I have said nothing at all to suggest that Poe the man had used opiuim of that he was writing while he was high.”

I could not tell. I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I just wanted to make it clear because some biographies indicated that he did not use the vial stuff and some of my colleagues believe today that he did. I do not believe he did and I believe only a writer that was not ‘high’ could create such complicated and well-thought out sentences.

(Originally by Dark Muse)
”But you cannot deny that the narrator within Ligeia, had in fact turned to Opium as he states that he has.”

True, but since opium is used to dull the senses, it is a ‘cop-out’ to label the entire story as an “opium dream”. I think the story is much deeper than that.

[Dark Muse]

Ok, I think I understand your posistion a little better now. It is an interesting one, though I am not sure I beleive that Ligeia really was haunting Rowena, well there are some interesting things to talk about. So to hopefully encourage more people to join in, and to return focus back to the meat of the story itself. I am going to later today post a section of the begining of the story for comment and discussion and we can begin to look at the story itself more closely.

[LC_Lancer]

though I am not sure I beleive that Ligeia really was haunting Rowena,

I have the quotes found in the story, but I can wait until we get there.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I think it would be best to wait untill we get to that section of the text. I have some quotes of my own relating that part of the story.

[Dark Muse]

I CANNOT, for my soul, remember how, when, or even precisely where, I first became acquainted with the lady Ligeia. Long years have since elapsed, and my memory is feeble through much suffering. Or, perhaps, I cannot now bring these points to mind, because, in truth, the character of my beloved, her rare learning, her singular yet placid cast of beauty, and the thrilling and enthralling eloquence of her low musical language, made their way into my heart by paces so steadily and stealthily progressive that they have been unnoticed and unknown. Yet I believe that I met her first and most frequently in some large, old, decaying city near the Rhine. Of her family --I have surely heard her speak. That it is of a remotely ancient date cannot be doubted. Ligeia! Ligeia! in studies of a nature more than all else adapted to deaden impressions of the outward world, it is by that sweet word alone --by Ligeia --that I bring before mine eyes in fancy the image of her who is no more. And now, while I write, a recollection flashes upon me that I have never known the paternal name of her who was my friend and my betrothed, and who became the partner of my studies, and finally the wife of my bosom. Was it a playful charge on the part of my Ligeia? or was it a test of my strength of affection, that I should institute no inquiries upon this point? or was it rather a caprice of my own --a wildly romantic offering on the shrine of the most passionate devotion? I but indistinctly recall the fact itself --what wonder that I have utterly forgotten the circumstances which originated or attended it? And, indeed, if ever she, the wan and the misty-winged Ashtophet of idolatrous Egypt, presided, as they tell, over marriages ill-omened, then most surely she presided over mine.

Because the description of Ligeia is so detailed and extensive, before we start to get into that, I wanted to first focus on the opening paragraph of the story.

There are some interesting things here, some forewarnings about the direction this story is going to take.

I have a few thoughts and comments I would like to make about this portion of the story, and I will share my own thoughts a little later.

But what comments, thoughts, interpretations, does everyone else have about the opening to the story?

[Dark Muse]

I just came upon this image, and when I saw it, it made me think of Rowena, as she is starting to rise from her tomb.


The Angel at the Tomb 1870, Julia Margaret Cameron

[HerGuardian]

Since it is the second short story by poe I read, I liked it so much. From those two stories I deduced that he's into supernatural stuff.


Consindering the opening, it's obvious that Ligeia has died and there's something strange about her that we don't find in other women. Also, the narrator is so fond of her that he overlooked many details because of his love to her. Moreover, their relationship is weird. It's rarely that you find a man who's interested and attached to a woman who's intellectually superior to him such as she was to him.

[Dark Muse]

Consindering the opening, it's obvious that Ligeia has died and there's something strange about her that we don't find in other women. Also, the narrator is so fond of her that he overlooked many details because of his love to her. Moreover, their relationship is weird. It's rarely that you find a man who's interested and attached to a woman who's intellectually superior to him such as she was to him.

That is a good observation. Though he is very much taken by her beauty, he also brings in an intellectual side of her as well, which is not often portrayed in many other stories of love. He is in part attracted to her because of her learning, and proves to be his superior in education. The idea of intelligence in a woman being attractive, and a woman's intelligence being ranked higher above a mans is not a common occurrence

[HerGuardian]

Why is he caring about not knowing her paternal name since he didn't care once it was more important?

Why is he always refering to her voice as the most quality of her beauty?

[Dark Muse]

There are varrious possible reasons for why it is he may not recall her paternal name. Though it is left as a bit of mystery, as I think Poe intended. The not knowing her name could suggest the possiblity that Ligeia might never have been a true flesh and blood woman. It also does act as an alarm to the reader that there is something off about her and thier relationship. Becasue it is something that would strike anyone as being a bit currious.

There is also the fact that the narrator tells us in the begining that he is telling this story a long time after it happend, and well in the course of events he had made use of opiium, so it could just be a detail which has slipped his rattled mind.

I CANNOT, for my soul, remember how, when, or even precisely where, I first became acquainted with the lady Ligeia. Long years have since elapsed, and my memory is feeble through much suffering.

[HerGuardian]

Of her family --I have surely heard her speak

I think she told him but he forgot due to time.

[Dark Muse]

And now, while I write, a recollection flashes upon me that I have never known the paternal name of her who was my friend and my betrothed, and who became the partner of my studies, and finally the wife of my bosom

.

Here he says her name he had never known.