D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Quark]

Can we delay the start of the discussion until Monday?
I don't have time to read it this week either; the weekend would be better, like Hira plans on doing.
Monday would be great for me.

I wasn't going to read it until the weekend, anyway. It looks like we'll all be talking at the same time on Monday.

[Janine]

I wasn't going to read it until the weekend, anyway. It looks like we'll all be talking at the same time on Monday.

Yes, Quark, I am sure it will get noisy in here. Maybe I will wear earplugs....

Seriously, glad we are all in agreement on this one. Let us not overwhelm ourselves either. We can take this one real slow. We have a whole month to talk.

[Janine]

Our current short story is:

A Shadow in the Rose Garden


I found this picture online and thought it would be nice to illustrate our story:

My Sweet Rose by John William Waterhouse, another of the Pre-Raphalite artists I especially enjoy.


Whenever, anyone wants to begin the discussion is fine with me. I read the story last night. My first impression was how vividly Lawrence described the rose garden. It was so lovely and one could nearly smell the various roses and the aroma of the walk through it. Even the feel of the roses and textures was so beautifully described. Lawrence's mother had a lovely rose garden and at the childhood farm (the Hagg's), Lawrence visited often, there was a very extensive English garden in front of the house. I am sure he drew on his own personal experiences in these gardens to write this story. As far as I could see, he was probably writing this story about the same time he was developing his text for "The Rainbow". This is an early story for Lawrence.

I will try to find some online and book information about the story today. It is a rather simplistic story, this time around, so I am not sure how much I will come up with, but as usual, I will try my best.

[Dark Muse]

I loved the discriptions that were given of the garden, and later I may post some passages that I really liked.

But in the meantime, I just have to say, that though I enjoyed the story at large, I did not care for the woman, nor did I find her sympatahtic, but rather I found her quite annoying and cannot say I really felt sorry for her.

[Janine]

I loved the discriptions that were given of the garden, and later I may post some passages that I really liked.

But in the meantime, I just have to say, that though I enjoyed the story at large, I did not care for the woman, nor did I find her sympatahtic, but rather I found her quite annoying and cannot say I really felt sorry for her.

That is great, do post those passages, please.
Dark Muse, that is just fine that you don't like the woman; this will make for a better discussion. I did not find her very sympathetic, myself. She seemed to be rather selfish, although I think she suffered great shock seeing her former lover as he now was - so transformed. He is now, but the 'shadow' of what he was when she knew him...a mere shell of the man. I think this would be a shocking experience. If you have ever had a long term or deep love relationship, I think one would understand how it can be imagined to meet sometime later in ones life. Apparently, this was not what this woman had in-mind at all, or even had any concept of. In fact didn't she believe he was indeed dead? I think the ending to this story reminds me somewhat of the James Joyce story, "The Dead", but in a little different way. Have you read that story, DM? It also deals with a husband and wife and the wife telling the husband of her first love; therefore the husband feels he is second best to his wife. A similiar scenerio exists at the ends of both stories. Interesting.

[Dark Muse]

No I have not read the James Joyce Story.

Yes I agree it must have come as a shock to her, but I think the way she treated her current husband was quite cruel. As it seemed she married him of her own free will, and yet never cared for him or was even particuarly nice to him.

[Janine]

It did seem that way. I felt as though the two of them had been married for awhile now; maybe 10 yrs or so. Did you get this impression? The story that preceeds this story is called "Second Best", so perhaps we should have read that one first. I just noted this fact, in Lawrence's notes to his publisher; he was quite definite about the order the stories were to appear in the first volume of his short stories. I don't recall, Dark Muse, if you read the story with us, "The White Stocking". If you did not, that also was an early one, in which the woman character was not at all considerate to her husband; she really was not too likable. I noticed references here to the two sets of hands. The ones of the former lover and her husband's. Her husband's hands were apparently large and crude, since he worked at some job having to do with the coal mines - the pits - this was mentioned. I don't have the time now to quote these two references, but I will when I return home later tonight. The delicate hands of the lover seem to indicate a 'refinement' that the husband does not possess or lacks. I want to review the whole story paragraph by paragraph, to see just what Lawrence planted between the lines...he always does. Sometimes the implied information is of great significance.

[Dark Muse]

I was not here when you read The White Stocking, it sounds like an intresting read though.

Here are some of the passages that stuck out in my mind which I had highlighted.

A rather small young man sat by the window of a pretty seaside cottage trying to persuade himself that he was reading the news paper.

For some reason, I just really liked this line and it stuck with me, in particular, the last half of it is what struck me the most.

trying to persuade himself that he was reading the news paper

I just love the feeling and concept behind this idea. You can really feel the distraction of his mind here, while he is trying to wait but growing ever impaitient.

His jacket, however, did not look dejected. It was new and had a smart and self-confident air, sitting upon a confident body.

I found this rather interesting use of imagery, the way in which he is physcialy descirbed as being confident, considering the lingering uncertainties regaurding his wife and his marriage

There in the magic beyond the doorway, patterns of shadow lay on the sunny court, on the blue and white sea-pebbles of its paving, while a green lawn glowed beyond, where a pay tree glittered at the edges. She tiptoed nervously into the courtyard, glancing at the house that stood in shadow. The uncurtained windows looked black and soulless, the kitchen door stood open. Irresolutely she took a step forward, and gain forward, learning, yearning, towards the garden beyond.

I just loved this passage, the use of the words shadow, particuarly, as well as the way the lawn glowed, and the black soulless windows, which can make an intresting comparrion to the black eyes of her lover, which are now vacant with madness. Perhaps this is another instance of foreshadow?

Slowly she went down one path, lingering, like one who has gone back into the past. Suddenly she was touching some heavy crimson roses that were soft as velvet, touching them thoughtfully, without knowing, as a mother sometimes fondles the hand of her child. She leaned slightly forward to catch the scent. Then she wandered on in abstraction. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested. She stood gazing as it as if she could not understand it. Again the same softness of intimacy came over her, as she stood before a tumbling heap of pink petals. Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice in the center. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses. They seemed to fill the place, a sunny, gay throng. She was shy of them, they were so many and so bright. They seemed to be conversing and laughing. She felt herself in a strange crowd. It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself. She flushed with excitement. The air was pure scent.

Another beautiful passage.

She was no more than a rose, a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense. A little fly dropped on her knee, on her white dress. She watched it, as if it had fallen on a rose. She was not herself.

I really like the way in which the woman is portrayed as if she is one of the roses here. And I think a lot could be read into the statement, as to me personaly though she is descirbed as being physicaly beautiful he beauty is only skin deep. As she does not seem to be a good or generous person on the whole, and what does a rose have without its physical beauty?

I also like the way in which she is portrayed as physicaly resmebling the rose, where it talks of the fly landing upon her white dress. It makes me think of the petals of a white rose. And it seems to suggest a certain delicateness of her charactor. She is seen as being weak perhaps both in mind as well as body.

[Janine]

Good post Dark Muse! I agree with most of what you have observed and considered. I particularly like this passage, too:

There in the magic beyond the doorway, patterns of shadow lay on the sunny court, on the blue and white sea-pebbles of its paving, while a green lawn glowed beyond, where a pay tree glittered at the edges. She tiptoed nervously into the courtyard, glancing at the house that stood in shadow. The uncurtained windows looked black and soulless, the kitchen door stood open. Irresolutely she took a step forward, and gain forward, learning, yearning, towards the garden beyond.

I felt the use of frames such as the doorway was evident throughout the story. The frames seem to draw us into this other world of her past. Time seems divided by these window and doorways. I liked very much this phrase, "sea-pebbles of its paving" - it made one think of the sea by the
cottage.

It may be that the woman's beauty is only 'skin-deep', but I wonder if we are really given enough information, to fully judge her, or her husband, or see the full picture of their marriage.

I also like the way in which she is portrayed as physicaly resmebling the rose, where it talks of the fly landing upon her white dress. It makes me think of the petals of a white rose. And it seems to suggest a certain delicateness of her charactor. She is seen as being weak perhaps both in mind as well as body.

I liked this extensively. The fly being added to this idyllic scene does seem to add some feeling of forshadowing. I like the way the word 'shadow' is used as she goes through the doorway and enters the garden. I don't know if I would agree with your assessment of her weakness, since I don't know how much we really know about her or her past. We can only surmise what passed between her and the soldier in years gone by. The use of the word 'shadow' is certainly a deliberate reference to the man who will appear to her and be as a shadow. Did you also notice a reference to fallen rose petals? I thought that statement interesting. Also, some of the roses were briliant in color, but had no scent. I believe this also, had significance to the story's central idea. The man may still be beautiful to her, but hollow or without any substance (as with the rose scent).

That opening line struck me particularly, with the man trying to read the newspaper. Just the way it was written seemed so realistic and said so much. Also, the references to his clothing were important to set forth an image of the husband. Yes, 'distraction of his mind' is a good way of stating that. In one simply paragraph depicting the husband one is lead to believe he is complex as all humans are and so the story feels completely real and believable right from the start.

[Dark Muse]

It may be that the woman's beauty is only skin-deep but I wonder if we are really given enough information to fully judge her or her husband, or see the full picture of their marriage.

In a way though, being that they do not exisit outside the story, I think that is the only means in which we have to judge thier charactor. Though we can try and imagine senerios in our mind of what thier life might have been like, we only have what was written, and from the information provided I just did not feel moved to her cause.

I liked this extensively. The fly being added to this idylic scene does seem to add some feeling of forshadowing. I like the way the work shadow is used as she goes through the doorway and enters the garden. I don't know if I would agree with your assessment of her weakness since I don't know how much we really know about her or her past. We can only surmise what passed between her and the soldier in years gone by. The use of the word 'shadow' is certainly a deliberate reference to the man who will appear to her and be as a shadow. Did you also notice a reference to fallen rose petals? I thought that statement interesting. Also some of the roses were briliant but had no scent. I believe this also had significance to the story's central idea. The man may still be beautiful to her but hollow or without any substance (as with the rose scent).

Good point about the use of foreshadow with the fly. As well as the idea of the solider only being a shadow of himself. I did notice the presistince of the roses that held no scent and thier importance to the story and its meaning.

As to her weakness, in my mind, she is weak in the way in which she seems unable to just move on with her life, but she cannot get over her love of the solider whom had left her, and even when she thinks he is dead, she is drawn back to the place she had shared with him, but lots of people deal with lost love and are able to move on, but she reamins stuck in the past, and in my eyes, that is a weakness.

That opening line struck me particularly, with the man trying to read the newspaper. Just the way it was written seemed so realistic and said so much. Also the references to his clothing were important to set forth an image of the husband. Yes, 'distraction of his mind' is a good way of stating that.[/QUOTE]

[Dark Muse]

Just out of curriosity I looked up the painting that was referenced in the story.

This is the Stag at Bay
the artist is Sir Edwin Henry Landseer

[Janine]

In a way though, being that they do not exisit outside the story, I think that is the only means in which we have to judge thier charactor. Though we can try and imagine senerios in our mind of what thier life might have been like, we only have what was written, and from the information provided I just did not feel moved to her cause.

Well, this is true that we must work within the structure of the story but I did not feel as harshly toward her as you seem to have. I just felt there must be more she knows and had harboured in her heart that is not shared in the story, only implied. I think also she innocently went back to their meeting ground - the garden to reminese about him and muse on the past, not expecting to actually confront the past in the form of the physical man. That would be quite unnerving I would imagine. Therefore considering the shock she must have felt I think it would be understandable the way she reacted. She was later quite honest with her husband. She could have lied to him or just avoided the whole situation altogether. As in the James Joyce story "The Dead' the wife confesses her past attachment to her former lover to her husband.

Good point about the use of foreshadow with the fly. As well as the idea of the solider only being a shadow of himself. I did notice the presistince of the roses that held no scent and thier importance to the story and its meaning.

Yes, thanks...the fly just seemed so graphic against the purity of the background of her white dress, didn't it? I will review the walk through the rose garden and site certain details of that tomorrow. I am too tired out presently to do so. I am going to quite the computer really soon now for tonight.

As to her weakness, in my mind, she is weak in the way in which she seems unable to just move on with her life, but she cannot get over her love of the solider whom had left her, and even when she thinks he is dead, she is drawn back to the place she had shared with him, but lots of people deal with lost love and are able to move on, but she reamins stuck in the past, and in my eyes, that is a weakness.

Many people though are routed still in their pasts, so I feel this woman is probably a realistic portrayal of a person who feels this dug back to her past and a time she was exceedingly happy and blissful. I don't know if a person can control this and how they would feel. Even though he left her and she thought he had died she still might have strong feelings for someone she loved that intensely. To me it is an interesting scenerio. Who would think of it; seeing an ex-lover and finding him, firstly, alive when considered dead, and yet really dead in spirit and soul, being only the shell of the person he had once been. That would be very startling indeed.

Thanks, Dark Muse...how interesting that painting is. I will have to review the text to see what significance this has to the story.

[Dark Muse]

Well, this is true that we must work within the structure of the story but I did not feel as harshly toward her as you seem to have. I just felt there must be more she knows and had harboured in her heart that is not shared in the story, only implied. I think also she innocently went back to their meeting ground - the garden to reminese about him and muse on the past, not expecting to actually confront the past in the form of the physical man. That would be quite unnerving I would imagine. Therefore considering the shock she must have felt I think it would be understandable the way she reacted. She was later quite honest with her husband. She could have lied to him or just avoided the whole situation altogether. As in the James Joyce story "The Dead' the wife confesses her past attachment to her former lover to her husband.

I personaly felt that she intentionally went back becasue of her inability to get over the past and it seems in this action she appears completely unwilling to try and make any attempt to be happy with the man she married. It seems from the beigning of the story to the end she shows no devotion or affection for her husband whatsoever, but if she was so unable to give her heart to another man, she never had to marry again, she did so of her own choice.

Many people though are routed still in their pasts, so I feel this woman is probably a realistic portrayal of a person who feels this dug back to her past and a time she was exceedingly happy and blissful. I don't know if a person can control this and how they would feel. Even though he left her and she thought he had died she still might have strong feelings for someone she loved that intensely. To me it is an interesting scenerio. Who would think of it; seeing an ex-lover and finding him, firstly, alive when considered dead, and yet really dead in spirit and soul, being only the shell of the person he had once been. That would be very startling indeed.

I think to an extent people can control thier feelings, one does not forget or stop loving thier former or first loves, but they move on from that point typically and learn to live thier life in the present and the future instead of trying to have what is no more.

[Dark Muse]

I never heard of the Tree of Heaven before so I looked it up, and this it what it looks like

[Janine]

I personaly felt that she intentionally went back becasue of her inability to get over the past and it seems in this action she appears completely unwilling to try and make any attempt to be happy with the man she married. It seems from the beigning of the story to the end she shows no devotion or affection for her husband whatsoever, but if she was so unable to give her heart to another man, she never had to marry again, she did so of her own choice.

But I think somewhere in the story it indicated that she never did love her husband. I will have to look this up tomorrow to be exact. I am falling asleep right now. We hardly see she and her husband together so how do we know she is always this unaffectionate with him. Lawrence and his wife, Frieda, often quarreled and were at odds with each other but then they did profess to love each other. I really don't know the full dynamics of this couple's interpersonal relationship here. I think the concentration is more on the fact of the meeting with the man from her past. I think at the end it states that with patience they have now to wait to see what will happen. My memory is foggy now on this so I will review later tonight and post something more precise tomorrow.

I think to an extent people can control thier feelings, one does not forget or stop loving thier former or first loves, but they move on from that point typically and learn to live thier life in the present and the future instead of trying to have what is no more.

If they are healthy mentally and sound emotionally. they might be able to break entirely from their past. but there are a lot of people who truly cannot do so entirely. What you are stating is indeed healthy and ideal, and mature, but all people do not achieve this - afterall, we all have human weaknesses.

Interesting photo of the 'Tree of Heaven'. I will review where these things are related to the text, mentioned - this 'Tree of Heaven' and the painting you posted earlier. They must have some deep significance to this story.