D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Virgil]

Yes, this is true. It is just that death seems to be spiritual here also and it gets confusing. Is spiritual after death or the consumation of the body with another human? It feels to me like two kinds of spiritual.

You know, I don't think I have ever put together L's ideas on death. I'm sure he has them, he has thoughts on everything.

So you do see my point - about contradictions, or seeming condraditions.

Yes. But if you play with the ideas (like I do with dualities) I think you can figure out what he's after. Remember, he's a fiction writer, not a philosopher.

Oh, good maybe you can find the text sometime and point that out specifically to me. I would be greatly interested.

I was hoping you would read it. I'll look for it tomorrow.

Virgil, I probably will make this my last post tonight.

Have fun. It's getting late for me too.

[Janine]

You know, I don't think I have ever put together L's ideas on death. I'm sure he has them, he has thoughts on everything.

My thoughts on that are that his ideas on death changed quite a bit by the end of his life. I suppose you could say they evolved. After reading the travel books and especially "Etruscan Places" I got better insight into how L was then thinking about death or contemplating it, and what exactly death was or meant to him. At this juncture in his life, I think he knew his own death was near and eminent. I think it was only a few years later that he did die. Up until his dying breathe, I think he grasped to life and did not give in easily to death. His final words indicate that. I do not feel he was totally settled on the issue of death and the hereafter, to be honest with you, perhaps it is just the way I see it or sense it from my reading. He had theories, but maybe that is all any of us can have in the final analysis.

Yes. But if you play with the ideas (like I do with dualities) I think you can figure out what he's after. Remember, he's a fiction writer, not a philosopher.

Well, playing with the dualities is a good method. I think I have done so myself selfconsciously. I also play with the parrellels and the connections to what I know. Yes, true that he was a fiction writer but so much of his work was based on life and what he observed. I do feel this story is almost a fable. I have been thinking on this last night. Although presented realistically thinks happen and change in the course of what (?), 10 pages...not much time to change the whole way one sees things. So that is why I question the transfiguration at the end. It does not seem too realistic to me but, I know, we won't jump that far ahead yet. It seems more representative of L's views on spirituality of the flesh if we look favorably on the end. I know that the story "Rocking Horse Winner" is said to be a story of fable. He was in that stage toward the end of the short story period, I believe. I did not originally think this story a fable, but I guess it is one possibility.

I was hoping you would read it. I'll look for it tomorrow.

Great I would like to re-read that part. I have your thesis here but not sure which part that is. I can skim the thesis and see if I can find the reference.

Have fun. It's getting late for me too.

Oh, thanks. I enjoyed the film very much. It was long, though. I like stories about tall ships, navigation, adventure and clocks and devices used on ships, so the story fascinated me. I also like true stories, two being interwined in this miniseries. It was directed by Sturridge who did "Brideshead Revisited". I admire him and his work. "Shackelton" is my favorite adventure miniseries. I own it. It is such an unbelievable true story. I have tons of books, etc. on the real man and the survival story. I read Shakleton's own accounts - one book is "South ~ "The Endurance Expedition"....it is an amazing story told in his own words. Have you seen "Longitude" or "Shackleton"?

[Virgil]

My thoughts on that are that his ideas on death changed quite a bit by the end of his life. I suppose you could say they evolved. After reading the travel books and especially "Etruscan Places" I got better insight into how L was then thinking about death or contemplating it, and what exactly death was or meant to him. At this juncture in his life, I think he knew his own death was near and eminent. I think it was only a few years later that he did die. Up until his dying breathe, I think he grasped to life and did not give in easily to death. His final words indicate that. I do not feel he was totally settled on the issue of death and the hereafter, to be honest with you, perhaps it is just the way I see it or sense it from my reading. He had theories, but maybe that is all any of us can have in the final analysis.

Yes, I agree.

I know that the story "Rocking Horse Winner" is said to be a story of fable. He was in that stage toward the end of the short story period, I believe. I did not originally think this story a fable, but I guess it is one possibility.

Many of L's works have a mythic/fable feel.

Great I would like to re-read that part. I have your thesis here but not sure which part that is. I can skim the thesis and see if I can find the reference.

I didn't get the chance yet. I came across my thesis theother day. It's in my study.

Oh, thanks. I enjoyed the film very much. It was long, though. I like stories about tall ships, navigation, adventure and clocks and devices used on ships, so the story fascinated me. I also like true stories, two being interwined in this miniseries. It was directed by Sturridge who did "Brideshead Revisited". I admire him and his work. "Shackelton" is my favorite adventure miniseries. I own it. It is such an unbelievable true story. I have tons of books, etc. on the real man and the survival story. I read Shakleton's own accounts - one book is "South ~ "The Endurance Expedition"....it is an amazing story told in his own words. Have you seen "Longitude" or "Shackleton"?

No I haven't. I'm not as well versed in film as you.

Perhaps Janine you can start something on that graveyard scene. That is our next logical discussion. I'm going to be tied up the rest of the afternoon and into this evening.

[Janine]

Yes, I agree.

Glad you agree about the death issue.

Many of L's works have a mythic/fable feel.

True, so true.

I didn't get the chance yet. I came across my thesis theother day. It's in my study.

Take your time.

No I haven't. I'm not as well versed in film as you.

Oh, a shame - the miniseries are usually really good. I recall wanting to watch "Shackleton" when it was on TV, but my mother dominated the downstairs TV, and she would not watch it; I did not have a TV upstairs at the time. I was so happy to see it finally and I liked it so much I bought the miniseries, since I got obsessed with the story. The extra disks are great too - one a documentary with real films and photos - how they survived is a true miracle.

Perhaps Janine you can start something on that graveyard scene. That is our next logical discussion. I'm going to be tied up the rest of the afternoon and into this evening.

This thread can sit awhile, you know. We can take a pause. I am busy tonight, too. I will review you thesis later tonight if I am not too tired and then I will start the graveyard today or tomorrow.

[Virgil]

That glorification state is described by L somewhere else (I'm not sure where, but I have it in my thesis) as a flower blossoming, completely mindless but spiritually fulfilled.

Oh, good maybe you can find the text sometime and point that out specifically to me. I would be greatly interested.

I found it; it was in my thesis. Here's what I quoted in the thesis from Lawrence's essay on Thomas Hardy, "Study of Thomas Hardy:"

The final aim of every living thing, creature, or being is the full achievement of itself. This acomplished, it will produce what it will produce, it will bear the fruit of its nature. Not the fruit, however, but the flower is the culmination and climax, the degree to be striven for. (Phoenix p.403)

This essay is collected in Phoenix, a mostly non-fiction collection of Lawrence's writings.

Here are the paragraphs of Mabel at her mother's grave. For ease of discussion, I'll refer to them as paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4.

In the afternoon she took a little bag, with shears and sponge and a small scrubbing brush, and went out. It was a grey, wintry day, with saddened, dark-green fields and an atmosphere blackened by the smoke of foundries not far off. She went quickly, darkly along the causeway, heeding nobody, through the town to the churchyard.

There she always felt secure, as if no one could see her, although as a matter of fact she was exposed to the stare of everyone who passed along under the churchyard wall. Nevertheless, once under the shadow of the great looming church, among the graves, she felt immune from the world, reserved within the thick churchyard wall as in another country.

Carefully she clipped the grass from the grave, and arranged the pinky-white, small chrysanthemums in the tin cross. When this was done, she took an empty jar from a neighbouring grave, brought water, and carefully, most scrupulously sponged the marble headstone and the coping-stone.

It gave her sincere satisfaction to do this. She felt in immediate contact with the world of her mother. She took minute pains, went through the park in a state bordering on pure happiness, as if in performing this task she came into a subtle, intimate connexion with her mother. For the life she followed here in the world was far less real than the world of death she inherited from her mother.

Paragraph 1:
Narrative movement of her going to the grave, but with the emphasis of shunning society, "heeding nobody, through the town to the churchyard."

Paragraph 2:
Point of view enters her mind to get at her feeling of security and creates a partition with the world of society with that churchwall. The "looming" church image and with a shadow is powerful here and I think suggests the spiritual dimension that she desires.

Paragraph 3:
Her actions here begin to suggest a perversity. Clipping the grass is one thing, but I have never heard of anyone washing a tombstone. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but at a minimum it shows her consciousness is focused on outside the social world.

Paragraph 4:
The climax of this little scene. Key words, "satisfaction,"immediate contact," "world of her mother,"pure happiness,"intimate connection." And then, "For the life she followed here in the world was far less real than the world of death she inherited from her mother." The world of the dead is far more real than the world of living society. She has just about reached death by now, just her body is still alive, not her spirit.

[Janine]

Virgil,
good observations and I like the way you numbered the paragraphs. That makes it easier to refer to them.
Your thesis quote is interesting, also. I have read that whole essay on Thomas Hardy that L wrote. I have the book in my library; I shall take it out again and read the essay.
I don't have very much to say tonight. I am utterly tired out from this virus. I went out for a short time and now I am worn out totally.
One thing for now - I have heard of scrubbing a gravestone. In fact I just saw that same thing in a film, but I can't for the life of me place where I saw it. I am sure it will come to me. I know prior to that I have read or seen similar scenes before...maybe in a Thomas Hardy book. I may be thinking of in "The Mayor of Casterbridge" film adaptation - the daughter visits the mother's grave and I think she scrubs the stone, but I am not certain.

It would be better for me to take a break tonight and then address more of your entry tomorrow and in better detail. I have to go veg out now in front of the TV and rest.

[Virgil]

It would be better for me to take a break tonight and then address more of your entry tomorrow and in better detail. I have to go veg out now in front of the TV and rest.

Oh that's ok. Feel better and get rest. Tomorrow is another day.

[Janine]

I found it; it was in my thesis. Here's what I quoted in the thesis from Lawrence's essay on Thomas Hardy, "Study of Thomas Hardy:"

This essay is collected in Phoenix, a mostly non-fiction collection of Lawrence's writings.

Virgil, I thought I would comment further

Interesting - I read a book called "The Phoenix and The Flame: D.H.Lawrence" - was in my local library. I just took it out again since there are things I wish to review or make reference to. The other book of commentary from my library was just called "Studies in 19th Century Literature", I believe. I saw it online available and may buy a copy. I was browsing through the freeby shelf on my way out of the library and came across an old book - "Phoenix Feathers A Collection of Mythical Monsters." I thought this way I could read the section on the Phoenix and learn more, besides the whole book looks pretty interesting. Funny, pre-Lawrence days and awareness, I had always been interesting in the Phoenix. I had one painted on my bedroom wall since I stenciled a border of American Indian designs, isn't that strange?
The quote from the book about Hardy is interesting in that it seems to involve one person, not two necessary to consumate a life and bring it to it's fullness. I thought that L required the union of the two halves, man and woman, (even man and man) to acheive fullness of life, spirtuality, etc.

Paragraph 1:
Narrative movement of her going to the grave, but with the emphasis of shunning society, "heeding nobody, through the town to the churchyard."

Ok, in this part of the paragraph notice the word emphasis "....a grey, wintry day, with saddened, dark-green fields and an atmosphere blackened by the smoke of foundries not far off. She went quickly, darkly along..." Wow is that a dark passage or what? 7 dark greyish dismal sad, dreary words...gray, black, dark, smoke, etc. Great use of words to convey the atmosphere and minic the inner workings of this poor hopeless girl's mind. Also, note the emphasis - recurring theme of L's on "the blackened smoke the foundries not far off"...those foundries impending the serenity of the landscape, were always looming up in L's mind and threatening life. He uses them here almost as a metaphor to the threatening of death for the girl. Death occurs under the earth with the mines, and so it is with the girl. Perhaps I have found the answer to the "murky muddy water" question. L thought often of the killing grime beneath the earth in the coal pits. Perhaps the murky muddly water of the lake is also representative of a killing grime...death. Stangely enough in "Women in Love" one of the pinacle scenes is of a young newly wed couple lying entwined dead in the mud of the drained lake. I never thought of this relationship before to the mines and the grime, but now I can see it has a absolute correlation. So it would be coal, dirt, grime, dark, mud, death in L's mind.

Paragraph 2:
Point of view enters her mind to get at her feeling of security and creates a partition with the world of society with that churchwall. The "looming" church image and with a shadow is powerful here and I think suggests the spiritual dimension that she desires.

Curious that she thinks no one is viewing her and she is totally secluded here in the churchyard. Churchyard is almost from Thomas Hardy. He uses church images often in his writing. I think he could have been an influence in this scene. I also think now that Sue Brideshead in Jude washed the stones of her dead children. She too went through emotional death. I think that is basically what this whole scene represents - Mabels emotional death and alienation from society and life itself. The church may also suggest the spiritual dimension but not really in a positive way as it was also with Sue Brideshead who retreated from life at that point, but felt she was justified morally to do so.

Paragraph 3:
Her actions here begin to suggest a perversity. Clipping the grass is one thing, but I have never heard of anyone washing a tombstone. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but at a minimum it shows her consciousness is focused on outside the social world.

I don't know if it is a perversity as much as what I have already said - a deliberate retreating from the norm and life. It represents the retreat into a death state. The churchyard wall seems significant as the fake facade or barrier in which she feel secure and hidden from the world, when in reality she is not. Also I wonder if L is not showing us that Mabel's view of herself is quite distorted, and different than those of the world viewing her.

Paragraph 4:
The climax of this little scene. Key words, "satisfaction,"immediate contact," "world of her mother,"pure happiness,"intimate connection." And then, "For the life she followed here in the world was far less real than the world of death she inherited from her mother." The world of the dead is far more real than the world of living society. She has just about reached death by now, just her body is still alive, not her spirit.

So she sees herself as inheriting this desire for death from her mother? She wishes to pass through this dismal world into another world that is her only hope. Do you think this shows she does believe in an afterlife? such as heaven as a better alternative to her dark dismal existence? I wonder if we know how her mother died - we don't, right? If in childbirth, it certainly would make sense the girl does not feel that she should have the right to life. Did it say how the father died? I don't think it did, but we have to imagine both. I get the impression the mother had been dead a long time and the father died recently. How about you?
"She took minute pains, went through the park in a state bordering on pure happiness, as if in performing this task she came into a subtle, intimate connexion with her mother." Earlier did it not say she was in a state of ecstasy - isn't that used in Hamlet to describe maddness or mental deviation? Interesting that it says she was "bordering on pure happiness". This passage is apparently how she sees herself at that instant in time.

[Virgil]

Interesting - I read a book called "The Phoenix and The Flame: D.H.Lawrence" - was in my local library. I just took it out again since there are things I wish to review or make reference to.

OK. The book rings a bell. I'm pretty sure I looked through it for my research. Who's the author?

The other book of commentary from my library was just called "Studies in 19th Century Literature", I believe. I saw it online available and may buy a copy.

Why buy that one? L is 20th century.

I was browsing through the freeby shelf on my way out of the library and came across an old book - "Phoenix Feathers A Collection of Mythical Monsters." I thought this way I could read the section on the Phoenix and learn more, besides the whole book looks pretty interesting. Funny, pre-Lawrence days and awareness, I had always been interesting in the Phoenix. I had one painted on my bedroom wall since I stenciled a border of American Indian designs, isn't that strange?

I really like the conept of the Phoenix myself.

The quote from the book about Hardy is interesting in that it seems to involve one person, not two necessary to consumate a life and bring it to it's fullness. I thought that L required the union of the two halves, man and woman, (even man and man) to acheive fullness of life, spirtuality, etc.

Very good observation. I didn't think of that. So I wonder how L puts that together?

[Virgil]

Ok, in this part of the paragraph notice the word emphasis "....a grey, wintry day, with saddened, dark-green fields and an atmosphere blackened by the smoke of foundries not far off. She went quickly, darkly along..." Wow is that a dark passage or what? 7 dark greyish dismal sad, dreary words...gray, black, dark, smoke, etc. Great use of words to convey the atmosphere and minic the inner workings of this poor hopeless girl's mind. Also, note the emphasis - recurring theme of L's on "the blackened smoke the foundries not far off"...those foundries impending the serenity of the landscape, were always looming up in L's mind and threatening life. He uses them here almost as a metaphor to the threatening of death for the girl. Death occurs under the earth with the mines, and so it is with the girl.

Hey, those are good thoughts.

Perhaps I have found the answer to the "murky muddy water" question. L thought often of the killing grime beneath the earth in the coal pits. Perhaps the murky muddly water of the lake is also representative of a killing grime...death. Stangely enough in "Women in Love" one of the pinacle scenes is of a young newly wed couple lying entwined dead in the mud of the drained lake. I never thought of this relationship before to the mines and the grime, but now I can see it has a absolute correlation. So it would be coal, dirt, grime, dark, mud, death in L's mind.

Could be, but I feel slightly differently. There is a similar scene in The Rainbow. We can discuss this later.

Curious that she thinks no one is viewing her and she is totally secluded here in the churchyard. Churchyard is almost from Thomas Hardy. He uses church images often in his writing. I think he could have been an influence in this scene. I also think now that Sue Brideshead in Jude washed the stones of her dead children. She too went through emotional death. I think that is basically what this whole scene represents - Mabels emotional death and alienation from society and life itself. The church may also suggest the spiritual dimension but not really in a positive way as it was also with Sue Brideshead who retreated from life at that point, but felt she was justified morally to do so.

Great pick up!! I think you are absolutely right. This echoes of Hardy's Jude The Obscure.

I don't know if it is a perversity as much as what I have already said - a deliberate retreating from the norm and life. It represents the retreat into a death state. The churchyard wall seems significant as the fake facade or barrier in which she feel secure and hidden from the world, when in reality she is not. Also I wonder if L is not showing us that Mabel's view of herself is quite distorted, and different than those of the world viewing her.

I see the wall as a symbol that divides the different worlds. The world of the spirit from the world of society; the world of life from the world of death.

So she sees herself as inheriting this desire for death from her mother?

Why do you say inherit? I took it as joining her mother.

She wishes to pass through this dismal world into another world that is her only hope. Do you think this shows she does believe in an afterlife? such as heaven as a better alternative to her dark dismal existence?

Yes, whatever that heaven may be.

I wonder if we know how her mother died - we don't, right? If in childbirth, it certainly would make sense the girl does not feel that she should have the right to life. Did it say how the father died? I don't think it did, but we have to imagine both. I get the impression the mother had been dead a long time and the father died recently. How about you?

It doesn't say much on the mother. Father appears to have died in the recent past. Does say the father was a man of "no education" and married a second time.

Shall we look at Ferguson now, unless you want to continue this graveyard scene? Or do you think Ferguson is rather straight forward?

[Janine]

Hey, those are good thoughts.

Thanks! Well, so often L uses words like this to impart the atmosphere of the scene or the mood of the characters. He is a lot like Hardy in this way and probably first learned it from reading Hardy novels. It also sets up an impending danger of the suicide shortly to take place or be attempted.

Could be, but I feel slightly differently. There is a similar scene in The Rainbow. We can discuss this later.

Not sure what you mean here - seems he could have used the idea in both novels. I still relate the murky water to a threat of being suffocated. Lawrence also felt the mines were suffocating to the air and not only the workers but the whole beloved countryside. I wonder sometimes if this suffocation idea does not spring out of or at least become intensified by Lawrence's own illness and the fear of not being able to breathe, therefore related to his own death. He often relates the mines to death. The way he later describes Fergusen's fear of being emersed makes me feel this way also - as thought to go beneath the dark water would plunge him into death's realm.

Great pick up!! I think you are absolutely right. This echoes of Hardy's Jude The Obscure.

Thanks again! Yes, I got thinking about Sue coming to the cemetary and then seeing Jude there and breaking free. Not to say that L would copy this exactly, but surely he was influenced, even subconsiously.

I see the wall as a symbol that divides the different worlds. The world of the spirit from the world of society; the world of life from the world of death.

Yes, I agree with that. Interesting imagery - being in the churchyard - in the shadow of steeple and religion and the spiritual.

Why do you say inherit? I took it as joining her mother.

This is funny. I could have swore I read that word in the text, but I just went over what you had quoted and I don't see it. I have no idea why I used it - subconsious I suppose. I will go over my own book. I really thought I read it that way or read the word somewhere in the story.

Yes, whatever that heaven may be.

I thought so, too.

It doesn't say much on the mother. Father appears to have died in the recent past. Does say the father was a man of "no education" and married a second time.

Interesting, he having remarried - then maybe that is a sort of clue or suggestion that she died in childbirth. But which child was the youngest - was it Mabel? Does it say at all? Death in childbirth was such a common occurance back then, that is why I thought of it.

Shall we look at Ferguson now, unless you want to continue this graveyard scene? Or do you think Ferguson is rather straight forward?

Sure we can do that. No, I don't think he is straight forward - are any of L's characters? No he needs some looking at closely. I have some ideas on him.

Once again here is your quote from the book on Hardy:

The final aim of every living thing, creature, or being is the full achievement of itself. This acomplished, it will produce what it will produce, it will bear the fruit of its nature. Not the fruit, however, but the flower is the culmination and climax, the degree to be striven for. (Phoenix p.403)

Question: is this L's philosophy or is it Hardy's. If L, why does he say "not the fruit, however, but the flower is the culmination and climax...." Is it that this is the time most significant and the moment of consumation? the flowering?


Oops I just found your other post right before the one I answered. I will answer that one after you comment on this one, otherwise it will all get too confusing I think. One thing - I had the title wrong - sorry - it is "Studies in Classic American Literature (Twentieth Century Classics) (Paperback)". I had it in my wish list on Amazon. I forgot the title, duh...

[Virgil]

Interesting, he having remarried - then maybe that is a sort of clue or suggestion that she died in childbirth. But which child was the youngest - was it Mabel? Does it say at all? Death in childbirth was such a common occurance back then, that is why I thought of it.

To me if it doesn't say, it doesn't say.

Sure we can do that. No, I don't think he is straight forward - are any of L's characters? No he needs some looking at closely. I have some ideas on him.

OK.

Once again here is your quote from the book on Hardy:

Question: is this L's philosophy or is it Hardy's. If L, why does he say "not the fruit, however, but the flower is the culmination and climax...." Is it that this is the time most significant and the moment of consumation? the flowering?

Well, I certainly don't remember. If I quoted it to explain L, then it has to be L's idea. If I get the chance, I'll check the book; I have Phoenix.

Oops I just found your other post right before the one I answered. I will answer that one after you comment on this one, otherwise it will all get too confusing I think. One thing - I had the title wrong - sorry - it is "Studies in Classic American Literature (Twentieth Century Classics) (Paperback)". I had it in my wish list on Amazon. I forgot the title, duh...

Oh, "Studies in Classic American Literature" is another Lawrence non-fiction book. He analyzes American writers of the 19th century. He's wrong about a lot in there, but it shows Lawrence's thoughts on literature. It shows his love of Whitman and Mellvile. Very much worth having. I don't think have that one. But I remember reading it.

[Janine]

To me if it doesn't say, it doesn't say.

Ok, sorry, I must have gone off the deep end on that one. Just thinking that way I guess. Really unimportant. She may have lost her when she was quite young though. She is isolated also as the only woman of the house.

Yes, let's go on with the man of the story.

"The Phoenix and the Flame" book from library is a biography by Geoffrey Trease. It filled in where some others left off. Not that great a biography but some added facts were there.

Well, I certainly don't remember. If I quoted it to explain L, then it has to be L's idea. If I get the chance, I'll check the book; I have Phoenix.

It is just that part of it sounds like Hardy and part sounds like Lawrence. I will wait till you check your book closer.

Oh, "Studies in Classic American Literature" is another Lawrence non-fiction book. He analyzes American writers of the 19th century. He's wrong about a lot in there, but it shows Lawrence's thoughts on literature. It shows his love of Whitman and Mellvile. Very much worth having. I don't think have that one. But I remember reading it.

Yes, I know how slanted it is; my library has it and I had it out several times now, mostly to read the Hardy essay. I would like to own the book, although I know most of L's opinions in it are way off target. Well, that was L.

[Virgil]

"The Phoenix and the Flame" book from library is a biography by Geoffrey Trease. It filled in where some others left off. Not that great a biography but some added facts were there.

Oh, I don't recognize the author. I doubt then I looked at that book.

I don't have time yet to get to Ferguson. Perhaps this evening.

[Janine]

Oh, I don't recognize the author. I doubt then I looked at that book.

I don't have time yet to get to Ferguson. Perhaps this evening.

You probably thought you knew the book since I mentioned it to you awhile ago. It was ok, but my other biographies were much more extensive.
No problem about Ferguson. I have to write an email to a friend in Japan, long overdue. I figure presently you are trying to read "Titus A" (I see the discussion has started up), also "Ehtan Frome"; I am half way through that book. I am also reading an essay by Huxley "Brave New World Revisited". I will emerse myself slowly in the book discussion. Like I said before, pauses in this thread are fine. Since it seems to be just the two of us (well, so far) we both know how busy we are and can be patient and wait for replies. No pressure here really. So start F whenever convenient for you.

Two things from your earlier post to comment on briefly:

:I really like the conept of the Phoenix myself.

I read some of the chapter last night in that library book on the Phoenix. It is so interesting. The myth began apparently in Egypt. I will try to type up the first few pages to quote to you, you will find it curious. I think the rest of my free book will prove interesting as well - chapters are: The Griffin, The Kraken, The Dragon, The Basilisk, The Roc, and The Unicorn. These all interest me. The Phoenix is the last one listed and says in the opening line. "Finally we come to the stangest and most wonderful of all mythical creatures--the phoenix".

Quote:
The quote from the book about Hardy is interesting in that it seems to involve one person, not two necessary to consumate a life and bring it to it's fullness. I thought that L required the union of the two halves, man and woman, (even man and man) to acheive fullness of life, spirtuality, etc.

Very good observation. I didn't think of that. So I wonder how L puts that together?

Yes, this is curious to me, also. L is somethings difficult to figure out. That has been the trouble with reading all the biographies by different people. Just when I feel I have him figured out, I seem to hit a