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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #331
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downing View Post
    Virg, it was grace who came with that theory, not me. I agree with you, both Pensive and grace are right.
    Oh sorry. Thanks for the correction.


    I also find this a bit wierd. I think that it could be connected to Hilda's later statement: "I am like a plant,I can only grow in my own soil."Perhaps it refers to the fact that, unlike Syson, she was quite ''static''...she needed ''this environment'' as she says at a certain point.
    Yes!! That is quite observant. A plant is static. That is is also the reason for all the wonderful nature descriptions. Nature is static and so is Hilda, unlike Syson, who has changed into a sophisticated person.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  2. #332
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Does the flush affirm the idea that Hilda was ''married'' ''actually'' to the keeper?
    To be perfectly blunt, I think it indicates that Hilda is telling him she had physical (sexual) relations with the keeper the very night Syson was married. What a slap in the face that would be to an ex-lover who also desired this type relationship with Hilda! Knowing Lawrence's background and his own relationship with his first love, then his depiction of this in "Sons and Lovers" I think this is what she is talking about. "married" - "actually" in her eyes, but not in the eyes of the world as with a marriage certificate or sealed contract. She has given herself to the keeper, whereas Syson wanted her in this way and apparently she remained pure and like a temple for him. Now all of his reality is shattered and she has progressed from being his 'goddess' into a real flesh and blood person. This ties in with what Lawrence later spoke of as his 'blood philosophy'. You see Hilda has become whole through the flesh and her desire and relationship with the keeper, but Syson apparently is still holding onto her image as untouched and pure and waiting, or saving herself, for him.

    Sincerely, I don't get this. Of what understanding is Hilda talking about?
    This would be the new understanding between them.


    This part of the dialogue accentuates the difference between the two characters; Hilda is ''static'', like Syson perceived her at the beginning of their meeting, whereas he is a ''traveller'', just like Lawrence was.
    I think that the quote I underlined: ''He had considered her all spirit'' revolves around the idea of Syson's comprehension of his former love's character. He now realises that she is not ''all spirit'', on the contrary. Hilda reproaches Syson with the fact that he made her feel not herself. This sustains the idea of how much different they two were.
    And the quote of which we talked so much about: which I perceive as rather silly, shows us that Hilda is ''static''.
    I agree with all and with everything else that has been added up until this post on the subject.

    Well I have to say Good-bye now for a time(5 days I believe) because I am leaving for the countryside tomorrow.
    I wish you only the best!
    Downing, So happy for you; to go to the countryside sounds wonderful! I know you will have amazing photos when you return. Have a great time.
    Of course I and this group will miss you .....
    BUT there is nothing like good fresh country air to renew a person's spirit. Do enjoy every minute! Lawrence would have recommended those long country walks. Have fun! J
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  3. #333
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone, I will post more of the story tomorrow. Going to watch a movie now. Then we can wrap up this discussion and go onto a new short story. I have a good one picked out already.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  4. #334
    Ars longa, vita brevis downing's Avatar
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    Hi everybody!!!
    I have just come from the countryside- I had an extraordinary time among my relatives! Great sunsets seen from the porch and a lot of strolls on the hills and through the woods... at a certain time I felt like Syson walking down the country lane

    I opened my computer being certain that I'll see a lot of new things in the DHL thread(the short story one) and all the time I was at the countryside I thought: 'My God, my friends certainly wrote new things over there and reviewed all this time!'' But when I opened it now, I was amazed! I had read before leving Janine's big message and now I saw that she only wrote another tiny post And I thought that I'll never catch up again with this thread.
    Good, Janine, I am looking forward to seeing the next part of the story. Maybe you'll tell us what short story to read next. I thought we could do another short story this month(July) because we are almost done with ''Shades of Spring'' and it's a pity not to review more if we do have time!

    Guys, I missed you all this week! I am glad to be back! Hugs to everyone!!
    Last edited by downing; 07-15-2007 at 12:29 PM.
    Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)

  5. #335
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I'm glad you're back too Downing. I'm glad you had a good time. You week sounds very relaxing and idyllic.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #336
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hi, Downing, so glad to see you back. Yes, I think this thread has just been waiting for your return. So happy to know you had such a wonderful week in the country. Sunsets from a porch - wow, how serene and 'idyllic' as Virgil put it. How could you return? I would want to run away all summer long and sit on that porch and read and relax and enjoy the great outdoors. Well, we are certainly glad you did return and can't wait to hear some more of your intuitive posts.

    Here is the next part of the story; this will take us up to the moment Syson and Hilda part:


    They came to a place where the undergrowth shrank away, leaving a bare, brown space, pillared with the brick-red and purplish trunks of pine trees. On the fringe, hung the sombre green of elder trees, with flat flowers in bud, and below were bright, unfurling pennons of fern. In the midst of the bare space stood a keeper's log hut. Pheasant-coops were lying about, some occupied by a clucking hen, some empty.

    Hilda walked over the brown pine-needles to the hut, took a key from among the eaves, and opened the door. It was a bare wooden place with a carpenter's bench and form, carpenter's tools, an axe, snares, straps, some skins pegged down, everything in order. Hilda closed the door. Syson examined the weird flat coats of wild animals, that were pegged down to be cured. She turned some knotch in the side wall, and disclosed a second, small apartment.

    "How romantic!" said Syson.

    "Yes. He is very curious--he has some of a wild animal's cunning-- in a nice sense--and he is inventive, and thoughtful--but not beyond a certain point."

    She pulled back a dark green curtain. The apartment was occupied almost entirely by a large couch of heather and bracken, on which was spread an ample rabbit-skin rug. On the floor were patchwork rugs of cat-skin, and a red calf-skin, while hanging from the wall were other furs. Hilda took down one, which she put on. It was a cloak of rabbit-skin and of white fur, with a hood, apparently of the skins of stoats. She laughed at Syson from out of this barbaric mantle, saying:
    "What do you think of it?"

    "Ah--! I congratulate you on your man," he replied.

    "And look!" she said.

    In a little jar on a shelf were some sprays, frail and white, of the first honeysuckle.

    "They will scent the place at night," she said.

    He looked round curiously.
    "Where does he come short, then?" he asked. She gazed at him for a few moments. Then, turning aside:

    "The stars aren't the same with him," she said. "You could make them flash and quiver, and the forget-me-nots come up at me like phosphorescence. You could make things wonderful. I have found it out--it is true. But I have them all for myself, now."

    He laughed, saying:
    "After all, stars and forget-me-nots are only luxuries. You ought to make poetry."

    "Aye," she assented. "But I have them all now."

    Again he laughed bitterly at her.

    She turned swiftly. He was leaning against the small window of the tiny, obscure room, and was watching her, who stood in the doorway, still cloaked in her mantle. His cap was removed, so she saw his face and head distinctly in the dim room. His black, straight, glossy hair was brushed clean back from his brow. His black eyes were watching her, and his face, that was clear and cream, and perfectly smooth, was flickering.

    "We are very different," she said bitterly.

    Again he laughed.

    "I see you disapprove of me," he said.

    "I disapprove of what you have become," she said.

    "You think we might"--he glanced at the hut--"have been like this--you and I?"

    She shook her head.

    "You! no; never! You plucked a thing and looked at it till you had found out all you wanted to know about it, then you threw it away," she said.

    "Did I?" he asked. "And could your way never have been my way? I suppose not."

    "Why should it?" she said. "I am a separate being."

    "But surely two people sometimes go the same way," he said.

    "You took me away from myself," she said.

    He knew he had mistaken her, had taken her for something she was not. That was his fault, not hers.
    "And did you always know?" he asked.

    "No--you never let me know. You bullied me. I couldn't help myself. I was glad when you left me, really."

    "I know you were," he said. But his face went paler, almost deathly luminous.

    "Yet," he said, "it was you who sent me the way I have gone."

    "I!" she exclaimed, in pride.

    "You would have me take the Grammar School scholarship--and you would have me foster poor little Botell's fervent attachment to me, till he couldn't live without me--and because Botell was rich and influential. You triumphed in the wine-merchant's offer to send me to Cambridge, to befriend his only child. You wanted me to rise in the world. And all the time you were sending me away from you--every new success of mine put a separation between us, and more for you than for me. You never wanted to come with me: you wanted just to send me to see what it was like. I believe you even wanted me to marry a lady. You wanted to triumph over society in me."

    "And I am responsible," she said, with sarcasm.

    "I distinguished myself to satisfy you," he replied.

    "Ah!" she cried, "you always wanted change, change, like a child."

    "Very well! And I am a success, and I know it, and I do some good work. But--I thought you were different. What right have you to a man?"

    "What do you want?" she said, looking at him with wide, fearful eyes.

    He looked back at her, his eyes pointed, like weapons.

    "Why, nothing," he laughed shortly.

    There was a rattling at the outer latch, and the keeper entered. The woman glanced round, but remained standing, fur-cloaked, in the inner doorway.

    Syson did not move.

    The other man entered, saw, and turned away without speaking. The two also were silent.

    Pilbeam attended to his skins.

    "I must go," said Syson.

    "Yes," she replied.

    "Then I give you 'To our vast and varying fortunes.'" He lifted his hand in pledge.

    "To our vast and varying fortunes,'" she answered gravely, and speaking in cold tones.
    Please comment away on the passage I have just posted. Downing, anyone?

    One comment from me. Does anyone else find these line curious?

    "I see you disapprove of me," he said.

    "I disapprove of what you have become," she said.

    Later I will scan/post something I read about this story in a book of commentary, which will interest all of you. Been scanning and it takes time/ patience. After this posting of the story ,I can post the last part and we can wrap up this story for the month. I have another picked out and will post it when this one is done, otherwise I fear I will loose you all to the next story.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  7. #337
    Metamorphosing Pensive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downing
    I have just come from the countryside- I had an extraordinary time among my relatives! Great sunsets seen from the porch and a lot of strolls on the hills and through the woods... at a certain time I felt like Syson walking down the country lane

    I opened my computer being certain that I'll see a lot of new things in the DHL thread(the short story one) and all the time I was at the countryside I thought: 'My God, my friends certainly wrote new things over there and reviewed all this time!'' But when I opened it now, I was amazed! I had read before leving Janine's big message and now I saw that she only wrote another tiny post And I thought that I'll never catch up again with this thread.
    Good, Janine, I am looking forward to seeing the next part of the story. Maybe you'll tell us what short story to read next. I thought we could do another short story this month(July) because we are almost done with ''Shades of Spring'' and it's a pity not to review more if we do have time!

    Guys, I missed you all this week! I am glad to be back! Hugs to everyone!!
    Hi downing! Welcome back! It's nice to see you again. I live at a place which is very warm and muddy, though sometimes I even find it beautiful (especially when it rains), but I wish to go and live for sometime at a place there would be greenery. Lucky you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine
    One comment from me. Does anyone else find these line curious?

    "I see you disapprove of me," he said.

    "I disapprove of what you have become," she said.
    This is making me curious as well. What is he that he no wasn't before? Later, she says, "You always wanted a change," and she said it in a disapproving manner as if she disapproved of it but that means she even disapproved of him in the past??? There seems to be a contradiction over here, but perhaps I am wrong.

    Later I will scan/post something I read about this story in a book of commentary, which will interest all of you. Been scanning and it takes time/ patience. After this posting of the story ,I can post the last part and we can wrap up this story for the month. I have another picked out and will post it when this one is done, otherwise I fear I will loose you all to the next story
    Thanks Janine for the hard work you do to make this discussion interesting! I am looking forward to it as well as the next story!

    "You would have me take the Grammar School scholarship--and you would have me foster poor little Botell's fervent attachment to me, till he couldn't live without me--and because Botell was rich and influential. You triumphed in the wine-merchant's offer to send me to Cambridge, to befriend his only child. You wanted me to rise in the world. And all the time you were sending me away from you--every new success of mine put a separation between us, and more for you than for me. You never wanted to come with me: you wanted just to send me to see what it was like. I believe you even wanted me to marry a lady. You wanted to triumph over society in me."

    "And I am responsible," she said, with sarcasm.

    "I distinguished myself to satisfy you," he replied.

    "Ah!" she cried, "you always wanted change, change, like a child."
    At the moment I am having trouble understanding this. I can't see why Hilda wanted him to move to a higher status and yet she did not want to come with him? It seems to me as if she actually really never wanted him?...
    Last edited by Pensive; 07-16-2007 at 09:53 AM.
    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

  8. #338
    Ars longa, vita brevis downing's Avatar
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    Thanks, all of you! You're very nice! Indeed, Virg, ''idyllic'' is the right word for my week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pensive
    Hi downing! Welcome back! It's nice to see you again. I live at a place which is very warm and muddy, though sometimes I even find it beautiful (especially when it rains), but I wish to go and live for sometime at a place there would be greenery. Lucky you!
    Thanks Pensy, I hope you will visit someday a nice green country

    Let me go back to the story and say what I think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pensive
    Quote Originally Posted by Janine
    One comment from me. Does anyone else find these line curious?

    "I see you disapprove of me," he said.

    "I disapprove of what you have become," she said.
    This is making me curious as well. What is he that he no wasn't before? Later, she says, "You always wanted a change," and she said it in a disapproving manner as if she disapproved of it but that means she even disapproved of him in the past??? There seems to be a contradiction over here, but perhaps I am wrong.
    Well, I think that Hilda disapproves the man which Syson became(makes me think of the lunch discussion which Virgil clarified,remember?), a more sophisticated man. I might be wrong here, I am not too sure either.

    "I see you disapprove of me," he said.

    "I disapprove of what you have become," she said.

    "You think we might"--he glanced at the hut--"have been like this--you and I?"

    She shook her head.

    "You! no; never! You plucked a thing and looked at it till you had found out all you wanted to know about it, then you threw it away," she said.

    "Did I?" he asked. "And could your way never have been my way? I suppose not."

    "Why should it?" she said. "I am a separate being."

    "But surely two people sometimes go the same way," he said.

    "You took me away from myself," she said.

    He knew he had mistaken her, had taken her for something she was not. That was his fault, not hers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pensive
    At the moment I am having trouble understanding this. I can't see why Hilda wanted him to move to a higher status and yet she did not want to come with him? It seems to me as if she actually really never wanted him?...
    Pensy, you said this when referring to another part of the story- I won't post that one again, you people can see it in Pensy's post.

    I think that the key to all their misunderstandings is the fact that they were different persons and they had very little in commun. I agree with you Pensive, I think that Hilda never wanted Syson: she dissaproves of what he has become and she always wanted to take him away from her.

    I believe you even wanted me to marry a lady.
    says Syson at a certain moment.

    Janine, I can hardly wait to read the reviewer's oppinion.
    Last edited by downing; 07-16-2007 at 02:31 PM.
    Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)

  9. #339
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote by Downing
    Janine, I can hardly wait to read the reviewer's oppinion.
    Yes, that might clear up a few things here, about why she disapproved of what he had become. Knowing a little bit about his other book, "Sons and Lovers", and the Miriam/Paul relationship, I think that Pensive should be able to comment on the line you underlined, since it relates to that book and to L's real life relationship with Jessie.

    "You plucked a thing and looked at it till you had found out all you wanted to know about it, then you threw it away," she said.
    I will scan that commentary later and get back to you. Unfortunately real life beckons me today and I have to go to the grocery store. Be back later tonight.

    Good posts from both of you - Pensive and Downing! I am proud of you both, getting so interested in this thread.

    Glad to see you back Pensive, as well as Downing. Thanks for your appreciation on all my hard work on this thread. I really did try to go the extra mile and now I am quite exhausted counting up the other threads on L, too. L Poetry is still going quite strong and WIL has picked up again, but not at a rapid speed as before. If you get a chance Pensive, I have posted something in "Sons and Lovers" thread, awhile back; I was not sure if you had read that last one. I also have some material to add to that thread from another critical analysis book from my library. I will scan some of the pertinent paragraphs. I am trying to buy the book from Amazon. It is a good one.

    I will add more to this later on tonight -- I have a few questions about things you pointed out in both your posts.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  10. #340
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downing View Post
    Well, I think that Hilda disapproves the man which Syson became(makes me think of the lunch discussion which Virgil clarified,remember?), a more sophisticated man. I might be wrong here, I am not too sure either.
    Yes, I don't recall what post that I pointed that out, but we are aware that Syson has become a sophisticated, worldly person at the expense of the idyllic (there's that word again ) country, natural person such as Hilda.


    I think that the key to all their misunderstandings is the fact that they were different persons and they had very little in commun. I agree with you Pensive, I think that Hilda never wanted Syson: she dissaproves of what he has become and she always wanted to take him away from her.
    This is an interesting perspective on it Downing. I took Syson to be like Hilda before he went away and as a result of going away became sophisticated. But what you and Pensy seem to be saying is that Syson was already different before he went away, and he went away because of those differences. I wonder if we really know one way or the other? Is there anything we know about Syson before he went away?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  11. #341
    Ars longa, vita brevis downing's Avatar
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    "Ah!" she cried, "you always wanted change, change, like a child.''
    "We are very different," she said bitterly.
    You! no; never! You plucked a thing and looked at it till you had found out all you wanted to know about it, then you threw it away," she said.
    Virgil, I think these are some quotes which sustain the idea that Syson and Hilda were different even before he had left her. I think that the difference doesn't consists only in the fact that he became sophisticated, but also in their different characters(see the quote underlined by me).

    "I distinguished myself to satisfy you," he replied.
    In spite of this, Hilda seems to dislike his new sophisticated behaviour. What do you think about this?
    Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)

  12. #342
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Personally, I think they were probably very different in many respects, but liked sharing some deep thoughts and some cerebral things such as the way they looked at the stars or books or observing the wonder of the woodlands. I don't think they had the makings of a long term relationship; Hilda apparently knew this better than Syson, from the start. I think their relationship was too complicated to say whether love ever really existed between them or not, or whether they were truly compatible. I think they were compatible to some extent, since they were attracted initially to each other, but this attraction did not have staying power in the end. Syson, always desired change, as Downing pointed out in her post and therefore this one thing set them appart. Hilda was satisfied to remain where she was - like a plant needing this very soil she grew up on and lived on and was a part of. Syson had much broader horizons to look to and broke from his environment and moved onward. The seeds for each's destiny were there from the start, and only needed to bloom into their own separate forms of reality.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  13. #343
    Ars longa, vita brevis downing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Personally, I think they were probably very different in many respects, but liked sharing some deep thoughts and some cerebral things such as the way they looked at the stars or books or observing the wonder of the woodlands. I don't think they had the makings of a long term relationship; Hilda apparently knew this better than Syson, from the start. I think their relationship was too complicated to say whether love ever really existed between them or not, or whether they were truly compatible. I think they were compatible to some extent, since they were attracted initially to each other, but this attraction did not have staying power in the end. Syson, always desired change, as Downing pointed out in her post and therefore this one thing set them appart. Hilda was satisfied to remain where she was - like a plant needing this very soil she grew up on and lived on and was a part of. Syson had much broader horizons to look to and broke from his environment and moved onward. The seeds for each's destiny were there from the start, and only needed to bloom into their own separate forms of reality.
    Excellent post Janine!!! Congratulations! I agree with everything!!!
    Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today (James Dean)

  14. #344
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Oh thank you, Downing! My errand was canceled for today - yeah!...a one day reprive. I hate grocery shopping. I do have to go to the library/convenience store after dinner for a quicker trip.

    Should I post the end of the story yet, do you think?

    Later I will scan the commentary also.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  15. #345
    If grace is an ocean... grace86's Avatar
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    Wow I am a bit behind. Goodness, well as Virg checked out on my blog, real life has me busy. Janine I want to continue to post in this thread...let me know when you have another short story in mind. But I will try to read some of the posts and catch up...I might even have to reread the story again...sorry about that.
    "So heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss, and my heart turns violently inside of my chest, I don't have time to maintain these regrets, when I think about, the way....He loves us..."


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