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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #256
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Do you mean what I wrote or how Lawrence wrote it? Some rapists don't feel anything like Lawrence's description of how the officer is affected, or so I think. I think some just go and do it again without much regard for human life or feelings. Somehow this officer is feeling very sickened by his own actions at this point right after the attack.
    I meant what Lawrence wrote, but it could be either. I don't think the officer has any regard for the orderly's feelings either. He's sickened I think not because of guilt for hurting the orderly but for what the perverse action did to his soul.

    Yes, we should push onward. Your welcome, Virgil, I said that, since you seem to know where to take this discussion; I was feeling a little vague right now as to how to proceed. This study is becoming epic and I thought we could wrap it up by the end of the month; then --- onward to a new story!
    OK, I'll post something on part 2 tomorrow.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  2. #257
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I meant what Lawrence wrote, but it could be either. I don't think the officer has any regard for the orderly's feelings either. He's sickened I think not because of guilt for hurting the orderly but for what the perverse action did to his soul.
    I did not mean that the officer had any regard for the victim in this case. I don't even think you could call his feeling 'guilt'.
    I think maybe he was sickened at the fact that he was capable of such a sudden and violent act. At this point he could not stand the consciousness that he was like this.

    OK, I'll post something on part 2 tomorrow.
    That would be great. Thanks, Virgil
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  3. #258
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    A couiple of points about Part 2. I'll make the first one now and the other later.

    Notice these lines:
    The orderly must move under the presence of the figure of the horseman. It was not that he was afraid, or cowed. It was as if he was disembowelled, made empty, like an empty shell. He felt himself as nothing, a shadow creeping under the sunshine. And, thirsty as he was, he could scarcely drink, feeling the Captain near him. He would not take off his helmet to wipe his wet hair. He wanted to stay in shadow, not to be forced into consciousness. Starting, he saw the light heel of the officer prick the belly of the horse; the Captain cantered away, and he himself could relapse into vacancy.
    and
    He [the orderly] saw the labourers, mowing barefoot at the thick grass, leave off their work and go downhill, their scythes hanging over their shoulders, like long, bright claws curving down behind them. They seemed like dream-people, as if they had no relation to himself. He felt as in a blackish dream: as if all the other things were there and had form, but he himself was only a consciousness, a gap that could think and perceive.
    Here is the sense of emptyness again, but this time it's in the orderly. That last sentence is particularly interesting. He felt that "he himself was only a consciousness." He can think and perceive but not have body or form. When you look back to the first paragraph I just quoted, it seems that the orderly and the officer have become just ideas, archetypes, living archetypes, a horseman and a foot soldier, an aristocrat and an underling. Again this sort of thing recurs in Lawrence's work, so this is not me just putting this together. It's part of Lawrence's philosophic belief, that the physical world is actually an illusion and that the core of our being is actually spiritual. This core of the person is in his sub-consciousness, and it is only through the will of the person that consciousness occurs, and therefore the person takes flesh. This is rather complicated and I'm not sure I've gotten it straight myself here. I understood it at one time, but I may have lost it over time. So anyone who is going to use that better check it.

    What does it mean in this story? I think what Lawrence has done with these two characters is over the process of fifteen pages get to their inner core, and find that their inner core's are incompatible. It's more than that. I can't quite articulate it. Let's just say that with two couples, a man and a woman, when he gets to this point, their inner cores merge and fuse into a whole. We see it in The Rainbow and I think we see it in Women In Love. But here, perhaps because of the perverse aspect (or perhaps because of the homo erotic) of the officer and orderly's relationship, their inner beings are not compatible.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  4. #259
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    A couiple of points about Part 2. I'll make the first one now and the other later.

    Notice these lines:
    and


    Here is the sense of emptyness again, but this time it's in the orderly. That last sentence is particularly interesting. He felt that "he himself was only a consciousness." He can think and perceive but not have body or form. When you look back to the first paragraph I just quoted, it seems that the orderly and the officer have become just ideas, archetypes, living archetypes, a horseman and a foot soldier, an aristocrat and an underling. Again this sort of thing recurs in Lawrence's work, so this is not me just putting this together. It's part of Lawrence's philosophic belief, that the physical world is actually an illusion and that the core of our being is actually spiritual. This core of the person is in his sub-consciousness, and it is only through the will of the person that consciousness occurs, and therefore the person takes flesh. This is rather complicated and I'm not sure I've gotten it straight myself here. I understood it at one time, but I may have lost it over time. So anyone who is going to use that better check it.
    "He felt that he himself was only a consciousness." This is an interesting statement. Glad you pointed it out. I think it is cusious knowing of Lawrence's attitudes. I would think it would now be just the opposite, that the orderly was more unconscious and in his actions from the moment of violence on. But maybe the pain is making him more conscious and aware of himself. If you recall for quite sometime in the presense of the officer he has been calm on the surface and kept himself contained. Now everything has certainly changed and his bearing as well. Although he is stoic plodding on dealing step by step with his pain and shame and fear he is now in a hightened sense of his own soul so I can see the point you are getting across in this entire paragraph and analysis. Interesting.



    What does it mean in this story? I think what Lawrence has done with these two characters is over the process of fifteen pages get to their inner core, and find that their inner core's are incompatible. It's more than that. I can't quite articulate it. Let's just say that with two couples, a man and a woman, when he gets to this point, their inner cores merge and fuse into a whole. We see it in The Rainbow and I think we see it in Women In Love. But here, perhaps because of the perverse aspect (or perhaps because of the homo erotic) of the officer and orderly's relationship, their inner beings are not compatible.
    It is definitely a prominent point in "Women in Love", with Birkin and Ursula, but in contrast, not so with Gerald and Gudren. I agree with what you have said here concerning the two men. In one way though they are now compatible - both are suffering in their own way - no one is a winner in actuality. All is wreckage and damage from this point on. The officer crossed the line from bullying to action and that has upset all aspects of their relationship to each other. In some sense the officer has acted, as a terrorist, and now instilled in the youth the terror of his actions and his potential for violent behavior and domination, even threat to his life.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #260
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    All is wreckage and damage from this point on. The officer crossed the line from bullying to action and that has upset all aspects of their relationship to each other. In some sense the officer has acted, as a terrorist, and now instilled in the youth the terror of his actions and his potential for violent behavior and domination, even threat to his life.
    That is a good point. If the Officer had not crossed the line, then they would have gone their separate ways once the orderly's duties were to expire. The Officer's actions have pushed the relationship to a different level.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #261
    yes, that's me, your friendly Moderator 💚 Logos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    To your PS: I am not even sure if it is totally permissable to post outside links on this site. Rules on here are pretty strict.
    The only part in the rules where posting links to other sites is not allowed is in regard to "spamming -- posting commercial messages, overtly promoting personal or commercial websites". There is nothing wrong with posting outside links, it's actually encouraged when say citing a quote, or, posting a link to this site somewhere else. Just thought I'd clear that up

    Also, I guess some of you have realised by now but Lawrence's The Prussian Officer and Other Stories is now officially on the site.
    Forum » Rules » FAQ » Tags » Blogs » Groups » Quizzes » e-Texts »
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  7. #262
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    The only part in the rules where posting links to other sites is not allowed is in regard to "spamming -- posting commercial messages, overtly promoting personal or commercial websites". There is nothing wrong with posting outside links, it's actually encouraged when say citing a quote, or, posting a link to this site somewhere else. Just thought I'd clear that up

    Also, I guess some of you have realised by now but Lawrence's The Prussian Officer and Other Stories is now officially on the site.
    Hi Logos, thanks for clearing that up. I have been a little leary of posting links right in the thread. I know Virgil the same. It is easier for others to get to the links right from the thread.
    I noticed Prussian Officer and other additions to the L section; also you emailed me a notice; glad you posted this since others might not know it. So glad you added these new stories; we all appreciate it so much and it makes quoting so much easier, convenient. I like reading from the books, but when not available, this is great for others who can't find them to buy, who want to join in this discussion.
    I think this thread is going well so far, what do you think? We could use some more participants though. Perhaps after reading a novel - Lawrence/June Book, some new people will join in here, too.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  8. #263
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    That is a good point. If the Officer had not crossed the line, then they would have gone their separate ways once the orderly's duties were to expire. The Officer's actions have pushed the relationship to a different level.
    Virgil, Yes, this is what I thought - glad you agree. This was the turning point in the story. Actually, there would not have been much of a story had the officer contained himself and kept himself from acting in a violent manner. Now both men view each other with suspicion and dread, don't you think? Both are "on guard" so to speak, much more so than before.
    Good, now we can go on and hopefully wrap it up by end of the month. I am anxious to read another L story, how about you? Since we are reading the L novel for the June discussion, maybe we could pick a shorter story this next time. I will look into my books and review some stories or read a few new ones; see what is good.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  9. #264
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    The other point that I wish to make about part II is that the same sort of lack of control that affects the Officer in part I when he "rapes" the orderly affects the orderly in part II. Here's a key paragraph:

    But it was only the outside of the orderly’s body that was obeying so humbly and mechanically. Inside had gradually accumulated a core into which all the energy of that young life was compact and concentrated. He executed his commission, and plodded quickly back uphill. There was a pain in his head, as he walked, that made him twist his features unknowingly. But hard there in the centre of his chest was himself, himself, firm, and not to be plucked to pieces.
    "Inside" his body he is losing control, so that the orderly's retaliation is also impulsive and uncontroled.
    The flame sprang out of the orderly’s heart, nearly suffocating him.

    “Yes, sir,” he replied, between shut teeth.

    And he heard the sound of the Captain’s drinking, and he clenched his fists, such a strong torment came into his wrists. Then came the faint clang of the closing pot-lid. He looked up. The Captain was watching him. He glanced swiftly away. Then he saw the officer stoop and take a piece of bread from the tree-base. Again the flash of flame went through the young soldier, seeing the stiff body stoop beneath him, and his hands jerked. He looked away. He could feel the officer was nervous. The bread fell as it was being broken. The officer ate the other piece. The two men stood tense and still, the master laboriously chewing his bread, the servant staring with averted face, his fist clenched.

    Then the young soldier started. The officer had pressed open the lid of the mug again. The orderly watched the lid of the mug, and the white hand that clenched the handle, as if he were fascinated. It was raised. The youth followed it with his eyes. And then he saw the thin, strong throat of the elder man moving up and down as he drank, the strong jaw working. And the instinct which had been jerking at the young man’s wrists suddenly jerked free. He jumped, feeling as if it were rent in two by a strong flame.
    This "flame" is a recurring motif in the story to describe the inner uncontroled emotion. "Jerked free" can be a summary of everything that occurs in this story. Inner frustrations that are subconscious work their way to conscious expression.

    Let me just reiterate my personal feelings on this. I don't believe in such psychoanalytic nonesense, but it was the going rage of the early twentieth century, and Lawrence develops his own theories of psychology which he excellently put to use in story telling. This makes for great psychological drama.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  10. #265
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    The other point that I wish to make about part II is that the same sort of lack of control that affects the Officer in part I when he "rapes" the orderly affects the orderly in part II. Here's a key paragraph:
    But it was only the outside of the orderly’s body that was obeying so humbly and mechanically. Inside had gradually accumulated a core into which all the energy of that young life was compact and concentrated. He executed his commission, and plodded quickly back uphill. There was a pain in his head, as he walked, that made him twist his features unknowingly. But hard there in the centre of his chest was himself, himself, firm, and not to be plucked to pieces.
    Virgil, I don't know about that 'lack of control' you speak of. He seems controlled on the outside in a mechanical way, and inside his being, the text describes "hard there in the centre of his chest was himself, himself, firm and not to be plucked to pieces." I don't see this indicating a lack of control. Can you explain what is leading you to conclude this? There is only one statement in this passage where I see any lack of control and the is "twist of his features unknowingly" caused by his pain.
    "Inside" his body he is losing control, so that the orderly's retaliation is also impulsive and uncontroled.
    I somehow do not agree with this at all. As I said i don't see a lack of control on his part at this juncture of the story. Maybe later but not now, even that can be debated. Did he lose control when he attacked the officer - maybe he was in the greater control of himself and his desires to defend himself finally. It is true that he has no control over the officer at this point but as far as having any control over his own being I don't think he could progress in the march and in his daily activities if he had lost control at this point.

    This "flame" is a recurring motif in the story to describe the inner uncontroled emotion. "Jerked free" can be a summary of everything that occurs in this story. Inner frustrations that are subconscious work their way to conscious expression.
    In this following passage you have quoted we are closer now to the confrontation and the actual violent killing act of the orderly. Now the flame could indicate the uncontolled emotion or the release of his emotions and the anger flaming up in his being, so that he acts with a vengence or actually a mere defense against all that has been done to him. If you think about it the orderly would most certainly be abused again by the officer so that to a great extent he is just protecting himself from futher harm, which could be called instinctive. I think his attacking the officer is acting in self defense. At that second he sees it that way. Perhaps too it is born of the anger he has so difficultly self possessed up until this breaking-point.
    Let me just reiterate my personal feelings on this. I don't believe in such psychoanalytic nonesense, but it was the going rage of the early twentieth century, and Lawrence develops his own theories of psychology which he excellently put to use in story telling. This makes for great psychological drama.
    Unlike you, who always use the word 'psychobabble' , I do believe greatly in the 'subconscious' and it's effect unconsiously on situations and people. However, I do believe it has it's limits and I think Lawrence and Freud were way off sometimes. True that L develops his own theories of psychology, which would easily be disputed today. But L has a keen sense of the minds of others and sensitivity to the workings inside a person's whole being. Yes, it does make for a wonderful psychological drama, but all of his works do that, I believe. Wasn't the last story about the subconsious, also? That is what I like best about L's writting.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  11. #266
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Virgil, I don't know about that 'lack of control' you speak of. He seems controlled on the outside in a mechanical way, and inside his being, the text describes "hard there in the centre of his chest was himself, himself, firm and not to be plucked to pieces." I don't see this indicating a lack of control. Can you explain what is leading you to conclude this? There is only one statement in this passage where I see any lack of control and the is "twist of his features unknowingly" caused by his pain.
    Well, I went back and read it again, and i have to say I still think the orderly does what he does out of impulse that he doesn't control. First of all there is nothing given where the orderly contemplates his revenge or retaliation. You would expect a paragraph at least where he ruminates what he should do or how he will do it. But nothing, unless I keep missing it. Second, all of these passages to me suggest non-premeditated impulse:

    The flame leapt into the young soldier's throat as he heard the command, and he rose blindly, stifled. He saluted, standing below the officer. He did not look up. But there was the flicker in the Captain's voice.
    But it was only the outside of the orderly's body that was obeying so humbly and mechanically. Inside had gradually accumulated a core into which all the energy of that young life was compact and concentrated. He executed his commission, and plodded quickly back uphill. There was a pain in his head, as he walked, that made him twist his features unknowingly. But hard there in the centre of his chest was himself, himself, firm, and not to be plucked to pieces.
    The flame sprang out of the orderly's heart, nearly suffocating him.

    "Yes, sir," he replied, between shut teeth.
    Then the young soldier started. The officer had pressed open the lid of the mug again. The orderly watched the lid of the mug, and the white hand that clenched the handle, as if he were fascinated. It was raised. The youth followed it with his eyes. And then he saw the thin, strong throat of the elder man moving up and down as he drank, the strong jaw working. And the instinct which had been jerking at the young man's wrists suddenly jerked free. He jumped, feeling as if it were rent in two by a strong flame.
    This is the most telling sentence: "the instinct which had been jerking at the young man's wrists suddenly jerked free." Instinct suddenly jerking free implies lack of control to me. Don't you think?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  12. #267
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Unlike you, who always use the word 'psychobabble' , I do believe greatly in the 'subconscious' and it's effect unconsiously on situations and people. However, I do believe it has it's limits and I think Lawrence and Freud were way off sometimes. True that L develops his own theories of psychology, which would easily be disputed today. But L has a keen sense of the minds of others and sensitivity to the workings inside a person's whole being. Yes, it does make for a wonderful psychological drama, but all of his works do that, I believe. Wasn't the last story about the subconsious, also? That is what I like best about L's writting.
    Yes, it suggests the workings of a human mind. But that's because he's a great writer. But Homer having Athena whispering in Oddyseus's ear and guiding him seemed like reality for the ancient Greeks. It's what you're culturally attuned to. The sub-conscious is no different than a good angel or a bad angel whispering into your ear. Some religious people believed (and many still do) that good and bad angels guides people.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  13. #268
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Yes, it suggests the workings of a human mind. But that's because he's a great writer. But Homer having Athena whispering in Oddyseus's ear and guiding him seemed like reality for the ancient Greeks. It's what you're culturally attuned to. The sub-conscious is no different than a good angel or a bad angel whispering into your ear. Some religious people believed (and many still do) that good and bad angels guides people.
    Well, Virgil, welcome back! I was wondering where you ran off to. I have not seen you on "Owen Meany" either. I am still plodding along with that one.
    Hmmmm...well ,V, how did mythology and angels get into this about the discussion on the subconsious? I don't really, truly see the correlation. Who thinks consciously that voices are talking to them - either Greek Gods, God or angels, could be devils, too....or fairies, or knomes...? Closest I can come to rational thought that is irrational is schizaphrenics; these people claim to hear 'real' voices in their heads. To them it is not subconscious.
    No, I don't agree at all with you. Subconscious is an entirely different thing. It is deep down, hidden and obviously not conconscious. I think Lawrence felt it intrinsicly. I don't think all of it was formulated from Freud's ideas. I think he knew it before Freud. Freud's theories just spurred him onward to delve further into his own concepts and shape his own theories.
    Even though we don't agree on this point, and I am sure it will come up again if we read "Women in Love" and discuss it, for now we can go on with this story. What do you think?
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  14. #269
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Well, Virgil, welcome back! I was wondering where you ran off to. I have not seen you on "Owen Meany" either. I am still plodding along with that one.
    I've been around. Sometimes it takes me a little time to respond. Actually you just reminded me of the Simon & Garfunkle song, Mrs Robinson. There is a line there that says: "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?" And then later in the song, it says: What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson? / "Joltin' Joe has left and gone away". Joe DiMaggio was alive when the song came out, and he never understood what they were talking about. He is supposed to have said, "whadda you mean gone away. I'm still here." What do you mean where have i run off to?

    Hmmmm...well ,V, how did mythology and angels get into this about the discussion on the subconsious? I don't really, truly see the correlation. Who thinks consciously that voices are talking to them - either Greek Gods, God or angels, could be devils, too....or fairies, or knomes...? Closest I can come to rational thought that is irrational is schizaphrenics; these people claim to hear 'real' voices in their heads. To them it is not subconscious.
    Ah, but that's a biological thing. There is something wrong with the chemistry and neuron mechanics in the brain. A sub-conscious is not biological. You might as well believe in good and bad angels because it's the same thing, a metaphysical construct that doesn't exist.

    No, I don't agree at all with you. Subconscious is an entirely different thing. It is deep down, hidden and obviously not conconscious. I think Lawrence felt it intrinsicly. I don't think all of it was formulated from Freud's ideas. I think he knew it before Freud. Freud's theories just spurred him onward to delve further into his own concepts and shape his own theories.
    I agree he's different than Frued or Jung or a whole host of other early psychologists, and for someone like lawrence who had no medical training to come up with a competetive theory to those other psychologists shows you that there is nothing biological about this. It's mythology.

    Even though we don't agree on this point, and I am sure it will come up again if we read "Women in Love" and discuss it, for now we can go on with this story. What do you think?
    Perhaps you missed my response above that last post where I replied to your comments. Can't wait for Women In Love either. I hope it wins.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  15. #270
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    Are y'all reading in a particular order or anything?? Is there a story that is coming up next for discussion??

    (Thanks for helping me find my way here, janine!)

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