Virgil, How funny, you were writing your post same time as I was - only 6 mins between. You beat me to the post. I will go back and read that one I missed.
Virgil, How funny, you were writing your post same time as I was - only 6 mins between. You beat me to the post. I will go back and read that one I missed.
"It's so mysterious, the land of tears."
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I did not know about this word being an elocution of Lawrence's and used in his past works. Thanks for pointing that out.Originally Posted by Virgil
That is a good one and I can see he uses it several times so he is emphasising it obviously. I was unaware consciously of this Lawrencian lingo. Great - I am learning something.But even before this, Lawrence uses another phrase he circulates in other works:
"Melt" is the word and it does signal a transfiguration in Lawrencian lingo. A charcter for L usually goes from hard to soft, from crystal to melt. That's the second time in the story that F's heart melts. The first is just after she sits up.
Did he actually use the word ripped or was that your word? I don't see it there? I might have missed it. Well, it is just that a 'transfiguration' with Fergusson seems less natural and more forced to me - ok, maybe because I see this scene more realistically. His 'transfiguration' does not seem so defined as Mabel's. She actually went unconscious and came back to a new born life. He was not unconscious and did not have to be rescued and new life breathed into him - remember on the shore he resusitated her? So there is the difference in my mind. He went under the water for such a short time, I don't see his full 'transfiguration', as I do hers.Melts twice in the story, his heart ripped, and crosses the gulf. While it is not as clearly put as Mabel, I think Ferguson does also undergo a transfiguration. But here's the clincher:
A flame too. All Lawrencian language.
Last edited by Janine; 04-20-2007 at 03:49 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Virgil, what happened to this part of the story? Did it get skipped over?I don't think you quoted it before and I think there are some important things in it. Sorry if I am backtracking a little. Be sure and read my last post, also. Thanks, J
This scene is after they get back and he gives her a swig of whiskey to revive her and takes one himself.
Hope none of this repeats. I just wanted to discuss it before we go onto the last parts of the story.The effect was instantaneous. She looked full into his face, as if she had been seeing him for some time, and yet had only just become conscious of him.
'Dr. Fergusson?' she said.
'What?' he answered.
He was divesting himself of his coat, intending to find some dry clothing upstairs. He could not bear the smell of the dead, clayey water, and he was mortally afraid for his own health.
'What did I do?' she asked.
'Walked into the pond,' he replied. He had begun to shudder like one sick, and could hardly attend to her. Her eyes remained full on him, he seemed to be going dark in his mind, looking back at her helplessly. The shuddering became quieter in him, his life came back in him, dark and unknowing, but strong again.
'Was I out of my mind?' she asked, while her eyes were fixed on him all the time.
'Maybe, for the moment,' he replied. He felt quiet, because his strength had come back. The strange fretful strain had left him.
'Am I out of my mind now?' she asked.
'Are you?' he reflected a moment. 'No,' he answered truthfully, 'I don't see that you are.' He turned his face aside. He was afraid now, because he felt dazed, and felt dimly that her power was stronger than his, in this issue. And she continued to look at him fixedly all the time. 'Can you tell me where I shall find some dry things to put on?' he asked.
'Did you dive into the pond for me?' she asked.
'No,' he answered. 'I walked in. But I went in overhead as well.'
There was silence for a moment. He hesitated. He very much wanted to go upstairs to get into dry clothing. But there was another desire in him. And she seemed to hold him. His will seemed to have gone to sleep, and left him, standing there slack before her. But he felt warm inside himself. He did not shudder at all, though his clothes were sodden on him.
'Why did you?' she asked.
'Because I didn't want you to do such a foolish thing,' he said.
'It wasn't foolish,' she said, still gazing at him as she lay on the floor, with a sofa cushion under her head. 'It was the right thing to do. I knew best, then.'
'I'll go and shift these wet things,' he said. But still he had not the power to move out of her presence, until she sent him. It was as if she had the life of his body in her hands, and he could not extricate himself. Or perhaps he did not want to.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
It didn't quite refer to his heart but he does say ripped. Here:
After the kiss, her eyes again slowly filled with tears. She sat still, away from him, with her face drooped aside, and her hands folded in her lap. The tears fell very slowly. There was complete silence. He too sat there motionless and silent on the hearthrug. The strange pain of his heart that was broken seemed to consume him. That he should love her? That this was love! That he should be ripped open in this way!--Him, a doctor!--How they would all jeer if they knew!--It was agony to him to think they might know.Yes, I agree, it's not clear as with Mabel. It's a question of judgement. I've gone back and forth myself, and I could be persuaded to either way.Well, it is just that a 'transfiguration' with Fergusson seems less natural and more forced to me - ok, maybe because I see this scene more realistically. His 'transfiguration' does not seem so defined as Mabel's. She actually went unconscious and came back to a new born life. He was not unconscious and did not have to be rescued and new life breathed into him - remember on the shore he resusitated her? So there is the difference in my mind. He went under the water for such a short time, I don't see his full 'transfiguration', as I do hers.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
No not a repeat. What would you like to say about it? The part I see significance is this passage:
The notion that he is in her power. She is the one charged with a special experience. I guess it's her power that causes his transfiguration, if he indeed has one.'Are you?' he reflected a moment. 'No,' he answered truthfully, 'I don't see that you are.' He turned his face aside. He was afraid now, because he felt dazed, and felt dimly that her power was stronger than his, in this issue. And she continued to look at him fixedly all the time. 'Can you tell me where I shall find some dry things to put on?' he asked.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Virgil, I don't have time for this tonight. I will have to delay till tomorrow to comment on everything in last two posts.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Yes, I think it says ripped open....funny about the heart...L usually said it was not so much the heart he was concerned with but deeper/lower down. L sure is confusing sometimes. Wish he were here so we could ask him specifically just what he meant?
Yes, same here if we could conjure up L from the "bring them back from the dead" thread and ask him directly we would know for sure. I don't think we can ever come to a solid conclusion.Yes, I agree, it's not clear as with Mabel. It's a question of judgement. I've gone back and forth myself, and I could be persuaded to either way.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I see him very much under a spell and her power. Right about his tranfiguration - "if he indeed has one".... at all. Maybe L means him to have one eventually, but he does not really by the end of this short story. Maybe she does, but he does not yet. Could it be one-sided now or could his transfiguration come later after they have been married or they consumated their love physically? I had this thought - her's happened and his was a potentiality.
But when we go onto the next section I am still doubtful as to their happiness in the future. Let's proceed with what comes next in the text. Soon we will get to the part where he she goes upstairs to dress and to find him something dry to wear. I find this part interesting, but there may be some lines of significance right before that.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Well, let's discuss the ending Janine. Perhaps that's what's giving you this uneasy feeling over their future. Here's the first thing I want to point out:
This is similar to several Lawrence endings. L is adverse to the happy ever after ending. To close with a kiss, which is quite possible here, implies that time has ended. L could hold them in that perfect moment, but in real life that perfect moment ends and needs dictate that we move on to the next thing. The need here is to get Ferguson out of his wet clothes. So the perfect moment must break. This is just the opposite of John Keat's poem, "Ode To A Grecian Urn" where the lovers on the urn are frozen in time, forever in passion. Mabel and Ferguson are not images or sculptures or any other works of art (actually they are, but L is trying to reflect reality) but flesh and blood people with human needs and not severed from time. This I think is the note you hear. You may be hearing it as a discordant note suggesting trouble to come. To continue the music metaphor here, Lawrence does not like to end stories on a closed cadence, but I think it's called a false cadence in music or is it open cadence.She shrank, and dropped her head. The soft, penetrating grip of his hand on her arm distressed her. She looked up at him.
'I want to go,' she said. 'I want to go and get you some dry things.'
'Why?' he said. 'I'm all right.'
'But I want to go,' she said. 'And I want you to change your things.'
He released her arm, and she wrapped herself in the blanket, looking at him rather frightened. And still she did not rise.
Now take a look further on:
Here it gets even more complicated. The pull of society tugs on Ferguson. Remember we were discussing the wall between their internal selves and the requirements of society? Well it comes back. Earlier we were talking about individual selves versus society, but now it's their combined couple's world versus the outside social world. Again the perfect moment can't remain forever. Time and human needs (society is not always negative with L) must intrude. And they must move on. However, I think you're going too far by interpreting it as a troubled future. It is that the present can't remain ideal forever.It was six o'clock on the clock. His own watch had stopped. He ought to go back to the surgery. He waited, and still she did not come down. So he went to the foot of the stairs and called:
'I shall have to go.'
Almost immediately he heard her coming down. She had on her best dress of black voile, and her hair was tidy, but still damp. She looked at him--and in spite of herself, smiled.
'I don't like you in those clothes,' she said.
'Do I look a sight?' he answered.
They were shy of one another.
'I'll make you some tea,' she said.
'No, I must go.'
'Must you?' And she looked at him again with the wide, strained, doubtful eyes. And again, from the pain of his breast, he knew how he loved her. He went and bent to kiss her, gently, passionately, with his heart's painful kiss.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Oh, this is perfect, Virgil. Really I mean it. I know, all so well, that L never leaves a story with a "happily ever after" ending. Yet unlike Hardy he rarely goes for complete tragedy with his endings. This all makes perfect sense to me now. You will laugh at me but several times I have read this ending and I mistoke this line:
'I don't like you in those clothes,' she said.
as being said by Fergusson. I wonder why I did that (must need new eyesbeen staring at this computer screen too long).
Now that would change
the whole context and feeling/mood and significance of that ending. Ok, now that I see this clearly and correctly, I understand. I thought he was criticising her for the clothes she had put on - "her best dress of black voile". By the way, odd that Lawrence picked a black dress after the whole death morning scene at the grave. Hard to conceive of a black dress being worn by such a transformed/radiant person. Do you see this having any significance? Perhaps just the fashion of the day but in other novels and stories L often points out colors of a woman's clothes such as bright yellow or white to indicate a lightness and gaiety or mood. Now at the end Mabel appears very proper with that black dress - it feels sort of forbodding or dismal to me, but maybe that too is signifying her return to reality.
The way that L seems to pull one back into reality and to the concrete is strange after seeing the whole set of events so symbolically, but as you pointed out, this is very effective in grounding us in the real world by the end of the story. Maybe one could say L is a combination of both "idealist" and "realist", but put into some type of balance with each other, or so it would be his personal goal at the least.
Everything you wrote here makes perfect sense - good job of thinking it out clearly.
I see you changed your avy? Now who is that? YOU?
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
I have no knowledge of women's clothing.I don't have any thoughts on clothing significance. But isn't Mabel naked here, just with a blanket over her?
Signature picture is of the real Virgil. Not me.Am I that old?
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Well, I am just into the "symbolic" significance of color....being the artist I am, and recalling L's use of color in other books. He so often paints a very vivid colorful picture of all kinds of things...he is quite an artist that way to I thought the black might have a significance.I have no knowledge of women's clothing.
Signature picture is of the real Virgil. Not me.
Answer to second (sign pic) question,
Yes, you're quite an ancient!
PS: I liked the Phoenix better - more interesting and nice colors!
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Oh what was the color, black? I didn't notice, to be honest.
Answer to second (sign pic) question,
Yes, you're quite an ancient!
PS: I liked the Phoenix better - more interesting and nice colors!
Unless you have more to discuss, I think we are finished with "The Horse Dealer's Daughter." As you can see by the length and breath of this dicussion that this is a very rich story. It really contains many of the Lawrencian themes (although not all) that runs through much of his work. That's why I selected it. Anyone that wants to understand other Lawrence works would be wise to go through this thread.
Now on to "The Prussian Officer."
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Catching up to you? - what do you mean, you will be catching up to me. I am older than you!Oh what was the color, black? I didn't notice, to be honest.
But anyway, I meant you had an ancient soul - like an old soul....very wise.
Yeah, I thought of changing my avatar, but then I would find it harder to find myself and wonder, too, if others would pass me by knowing my old avy and it is bright and easy to recognise. But the Virgil relief is a little flat and colorless, compared to the other one that looked so interesting.Just thought it is was time for a change on the signature. I am completely and forever locked into the wolf for my avy, so I have to alter something else. I'll bring it back.
Virgil, Can we go to next story tomorrow? But can we address the last few paragraphs of the story? There were a few things in there I wanted to discuss before we wrap it up completely. It won't take long....promise.Unless you have more to discuss, I think we are finished with "The Horse Dealer's Daughter." As you can see by the length and breath of this dicussion that this is a very rich story. It really contains many of the Lawrencian themes (although not all) that runs through much of his work. That's why I selected it. Anyone that wants to understand other Lawrence works would be wise to go through this thread.
Now on to "The Prussian Officer."
"This is a very rich story" - yes, I was just thinking of this - you really picked a good story to study.
Last edited by Janine; 04-22-2007 at 10:45 PM.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Ok, Virgil, humor me...I am just posting these last closing lines before we wrap this story up.
What I would like to know is why she seems to need so much reassurance? She seems to be very insecure? She keeps pointing out that she is 'horrible' and how can he love her? What do you suppose is the purpose of this ending? I felt this part of the story rather unsettling and strange. I think this is actually the part that makes me question as to whether they will be happy in the future.'No, I must go.'
'Must you?' And she looked at him again with the wide, strained, doubtful eyes. And again, from the pain of his breast, he knew how he loved her. He went and bent to kiss her, gently, passionately, with his heart's painful kiss.
'And my hair smells so horrible,' she murmured in distraction. 'And I'm so awful, I'm so awful! Oh, no, I'm too awful.' And she broke into bitter, heart-broken sobbing. 'You can't want to love me, I'm horrible.'
'Don't be silly, don't be silly,' he said, trying to comfort her, kissing her, holding her in his arms. 'I want you, I want to marry you, we're going to be married, quickly, quickly--to-morrow if I can.'
But she only sobbed terribly, and cried:
'I feel awful. I feel awful. I feel I'm horrible to you.'
'No, I want you, I want you,' was all he answered, blindly, with that terrible intonation which frightened her almost more than her horror lest he should not want her.
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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