D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Sapphire]

Um....duh, what is dadaism? You brilliant informed college girls!

I never had any arts in college, but this is something which I heard about in high school and I thought it such a crazy art period that it stuck I am not sure how to describe it... very abstract. They tried to re-invent art. Many people thought the practitionars had lost their heads Ever heard of Marcel Duchamp and Man Ray? Especially Duchamp was good at making art from every day items. Or at least declaring it art
Here's the link to the wiki-page. Oh, what would we do without wikipedia Actually, they call it DaDa... maybe it is just a matter of mistranslation on my part, the Dutch word would be Dada-isme and I just turned it into something which sounded English I should have checked! So much for being brilliantly informed

I am lost here - what is apparent?

I tried to agree with Enotes I think there are indeed quite some references to the Bible (religious ritual) and some myths in this story. I sometimes even thought he was trying to write his own myth.

I did come up with a PDF file with some analysis.

I found a pdf which is called "England, my England: Lawrence, War and Nation". Is that it? I think that's where I got the information in post #3142 from, though I'm not sure now .

Happy to be on board.

[Janine]

I never had any arts in college, but this is something which I heard about in high school and I thought it such a crazy art period that it stuck I am not sure how to describe it... very abstract. They tried to re-invent art. Many people thought the practitionars had lost their heads Ever heard of Marcel Duchamp and Man Ray? Especially Duchamp was good at making art from every day items. Or at least declaring it art

horrors and shame on me! I went to art college and had art history; of course, my instructor showed slides all the time and it was dark in the room and I tended often to doze. Why of course, I know of the two artist's you mention; I love their work. I have seen both in museums often. I just was not so familar with the term. At first, I thought it had something to do with Salvador Dali; he's a favorite of mine.

I think maybe you did make up a new term since I had not heard of it. I think I have heard of DaDa-ism; but I am not real familar with it. I am going now to check out your Wiki link. Yeah, what would do without Wiki?

[Virgil]

Fantastic. I don't remember this story, so it will be like reading it fresh. I'll have to find my book. You can find the electronic version here: http://www.online-literature.com/dh_...-my-england/1/

[Janine]

Fantastic. I don't remember this story, so it will be like reading it fresh. I'll have to find my book. You can find the electronic version here: http://www.online-literature.com/dh_...-my-england/1/

Virgil, thanks for posting the link. It also can be found on Librivox and other sites. Funny, I don't recall the particulars either. I read it last year; I guess I just have a poor memory or a congested brain. Glad you will be doing the discussion, also. Enjoy your reading.

[Janine]

I read a bit of the story today at breakfast. I think I will post this introductory section for us to discuss. It's a good story already. I have to go out for coffee today - ran out. I will be back later and may post that section of the story for all to mull over. If you haven't read the entire story, don't worry. I will be posting it in parts on here expecting a lot of good comments from all.

[Virgil]

Oh my gosh, already. I can't even find my book.

[Janine]

Oh my gosh, already. I can't even find my book.

Cheer-up, neither could I find mine (yesterday). It finally surfaced right before I went to bed, which was super late. I only read a few pages and I went out all day today and actually was shopping for groceries at Wegmans at
11:00PM...long story...but a rather funny one.

Therefore, I guess you know I won't be posting any text yet. I have something to do tomorrow as well, so let's just keep reading or hunting for our books until further notice. good idea?

[Quark]

I read the first page of the story while I was at McDonald's today eating the most unhealthy thing they offer: #7 Crispy Chicken Sandwich and Fries with mega drink of cola. The story sounds very Lawrencian. The contrast between the rugged worker out in the primitive Anglo-Saxonish wilds and the pretty, civilized path is exactly what I've come to expect from Lawrence. I think I'll read through the rest of the story Thursday. If I can find time, I'll try to post something.

[Sapphire]

The contrast between the rugged worker out in the primitive Anglo-Saxonish wilds and the pretty, civilized path is exactly what I've come to expect from Lawrence.

I thought it was Mr. Lawrence the moment I read these lines:

girlish voices, slightly didactic and tinged with domineering

The girls had to be given some negative adjectives

[Janine]

I'am still contemplating the chicken sandwich.

....off to bed for me......*yawn*yawn*....

[Janine]

I thought it was Mr. Lawrence the moment I read these lines:

The girls had to be given some negative adjectives

Back again briefly ~ I read this wrong last night. Actually, those exact lines stood out to me as well, being so typically Lawrence. Good observation. You all can recognise a Lawrence phrase now. A for everyone!

[Virgil]

Cheer-up, neither could I find mine (yesterday). It finally surfaced right before I went to bed, which was super late. I only read a few pages and I went out all day today and actually was shopping for groceries at Wegmans at
11:00PM...long story...but a rather funny one.

Therefore, I guess you know I won't be posting any text yet. I have something to do tomorrow as well, so let's just keep reading or hunting for our books until further notice. good idea?

I found it too. But I won't be able to read until the weekend. Work is too exhausting right now and I just want to vegetate when I get home.

I thought it was Mr. Lawrence the moment I read these lines:

The girls had to be given some negative adjectives

Yes, not a surprise.

[grace86]

I'm currently reading some stuff to teach a youth group - but I'm going to download this story. Virgil I already downloaded Salinger's, so give me a bit of time and I'll get to both of them!

[Virgil]

I'm currently reading some stuff to teach a youth group - but I'm going to download this story. Virgil I already downloaded Salinger's, so give me a bit of time and I'll get to both of them!

Great! Salinger's will be a really fast read. This one is a bit harder.

[Sapphire]

As most of you are still reading, the discussion won't start untill the weekend In the meantime: some more "background" information.
I promise I will not give the ending away.

Publishing date and different versions
The Cambridge University Press version of the bundle England, My England has an introductory in which is mentioned that this story was written in June 1915. This is quite remarkable, for the story itself lasts until late autumn/winter 1915 - so though the story is based upon real life figures, he is not exactly describing their life. Let me rephrase that: he is not following the happenings in their lives to the book. Of course he isn't giving a biographical account of his friends lives: the story is fiction.
It was published first in the English Review in October 1915. It did not appear in bookform until 1922 - in those days it was financially preferable to periodical publication (in magazines), which offered substantial fees. Once a story was in volume-form, there would be no such fees, only
the likelyhood of a much lower income from royalities for a year or two.
But in September 1920 Mountsier (from what I gather, an American publisher or agent whom [gr? object? ] he later has a falling out with) suggests a volume of short stories and Lawrence starts to gather them. Late in 1921, Lawrence set himself to this task and starts to send in stories. The story England, My England was posted on 9 January 1922,

much expanded and retyped

This makes me very curious about the original (1915) version. This was written in the middle of the war. Or well, maybe rather the beginning: the trenches were dug, but the people weren't tired of the war yet - they still had some hopes. Lawrence might have been unhappy about the war, but I find it hard to imagine he could grasp the total horror of it all at that stage. His revision for the story to put it into the "collected stories" called England, my England is from around 1920: by this time the First World War was over, and most of its horrors were known, even to the ones who "stayed at home". I imagine this can have had huge effect on the last part of the story (the war scenes).
If I understand the introduction correctly, there even is a difference between the English bundle (Seeker) "England, My England", and the American (Mountsier) - though maybe not in this story. But

The nature of Lawrence's revisions to the stories intended for the collection is not uniformily clear.

For not only Lawrence rewrote the stories, things got changed during the editing for publication as well
When anybody wants to read about this all for himself (it will make it clearer, promise ), here is the {link}

The bottom of the Sea
In the introduction of the Penguin book from 1960 (my version), it is said that

This was Lawrence's second volume of short stories, and although most of them ahad already appeared in magazines and reviews, he carefully re-wrote them for book publication.
An underlying theme in all stories is the emotional and physical conflict between men and women, and there is a frightening hardness and disillusion in the sexual relationships of the people involved, a disillusion which the author was later to shed in Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Many of the characters were drawn from Lawrence's friends and acquaintances in real life and some stories caused great offence when they were published. [revised to avoid spoiler] When the original of Egbert in England, My England had something happen to him which was predicted in the story, even Lawrence was aghast. [/ end rivision] 'I wish that story at the bottom of the sea, before it ever had been printed,' he wrote, but added a characteristic postscript: 'No, I don't wish I had never written that story' .

He said this due to a nasty coincidence of reality and fiction... And I can totaly imagine his first reaction was to wish it to the bottom of the sea! But, in my opinion, wishing something to the bottom of the say doesn't necessarily mean you want to never have written it. You just don't want anybody to read it (anymore). It might still be important in his development as a writer.. Or he just changed his mind at the end of the letter - it is hard to use "backspace" or "delete" on a written letter

Story Title
There's a William Ernest Henley poem called "Pro Rege Nostro" It became popular during the First World War because it was quite patriotic: it has the lines "England, My England" in them - more precisely, in every second line of each verse - 5 in total.

(v1) WHAT have I done for you,
England, my England?

(v4)They call you proud and hard,
England, my England:

It might be that Lawrence knew this poem and used the phrase in his title (as wikipedia claims). He probably uses it in a cynical manner, though. I don't think the story is patriotic, or at least not in the propaganda (for the war) kind of way.
As for the Book Bundle title, see post 3140 2nd alinea, 3141 2nd alinea and finaly 3142 Second

Well, that is all for now. I'll be of reading the pdf "Lawrence, War and Nation" now Have fun reading the story!

After reading the commentary Lawrence, War and nation. All the quotes are from this pdf.

In the previous post I mentioned that I am curious about the differences between the 1915 version and the 1922 version of this story. So I am happy to tell you all that some of these differences are mentioned in the above pdf-file
Next to this, it pays attention to the context of the tale in the time it was written. It gives some motives of the story and tries to make clear why Lawrence used those - within his ideas and the ideas of his time. In the end, it focusses on Expressionism, as they see the part about WWI in Flanders as an expression of this movement.

Publication history
I think this is a bit clearer than the way I put it:

The original version of ‘England, My England’ had appeared in the English Review in October 1915, and was subsequently published in a slightly revised form in the American magazine Metropolitan in April 1917. When Lawrence, now actively seeking an American audience, began to prepare a collection of short stories for publication in 1920, he altered ‘England, My England’ radically, expanding it to double the length and changing the ending. The first edition of England, My England and Other Stories was published in New York by Thomas Seltzer in October 1922, and in England by Martin Secker in January 1924.

Relation to real life
Lawrence stayed very close to real life events in this story - following their exact timeline!

In January 1915 the Lawrences moved into a cottage in Sussex, andLawrence informed his old Eastwood friend Willie Hopkin:

It is the Meynells’ place. You know Alice Meynell, Catholic poetess rescuer of Francis Thompson. The father took a big old farm house at Greatham, then proceeded to give each of his children a cottage. Now Viola lends us hers.

Whilst living in the cottage Lawrence proceeded to compose a story, originally intended for the Strand magazine, drawing in its detail upon life at Greatham, the estate cottages of the Meynell family, and the domestic life of
Madeline, one of the Meynell daughters, and her husband, Perceval Lucas. Perceval had been a keen gardener at Rackham Cottage, and [SPOILER] Sylvia, the eldest daughter.

So Winifred would be Madeline, Perceval becomes Egbert and Sylvia is Joyce.

Different versions
As said under publication history, the 1922 version of the story is about twice as long as the 1915 story. A lot has happened between 1915 and 1922, and Lawrence's ideas have developed. Personally, I think the version we read (the 1922 version) is very "explaining". Motives get repeated quite a bit, and while reading I really got the idea that the writer wanted to show his worldview. I wonder how apparent this is in the shorter 1915 version.
Another difference is that Egbert (1922) was called Evelyn (1915), Evelyn Daughtry. I always thought that was a girls name!
The end and the beginning differ. If you want to know the alternative ending, I suggest you read the pdf, page 8. It moves towards the horror-genre As for the original start of the story: it starts the narration at the end. While the 1922 version starts in 1913, moves back to 1904 and then towards 1913 and towards 1915 - the original version of the story starts in 1915, moves to 1913 (begin 1922 version) and then probably as the 1922 version. Probably, for this is not mentioned in the pdf and it could be that the whole 1904 to 1913 is missing in the 1915 version - that would explain the fact that the 1922 version is twice as long!
In pictures:
ORIGINALLY

REVISED (1922)


I personally think this is a very interesting commentary, but maybe it is more fun to read it after we've discussed it. That way, it is easier to keep an open mind At least, that is how I look at commentaries

NOTIFICATION
We have not start discussing the real story yet - the first part of the story will be posted on Saturday Evening (Janine time-zone ).
For the introduction to the story, see this post