Gone With the Wind

[Danik 2016]

Welcome to the thread Spike!

"the relationship between Rhett and scarlett at present is pretty poisonous.". Lol, that seems to be their normal and it sort of spices it, I think. I don´t remember the story so well as to remember about the misunderstandings, Spike, but their recurrence is significant. I fully agree with that;" Each feeling rejected and withdrawing. Each withdrawal feeding the rejection felt by the other."

Sometimes it seems to be rather a war of power than a war of love between the two. Or maybe their love can´t exist without this power challenge.

[bounty]

theres always been a combative, tumultuous and attractive edge to their relationship, but now that they are married and influencing each other to a larger degree, they're actually starting to harm each other, probably more so with scarlett hurting Rhett.

there was a female comedian a few decades ago, whose name escapes me, who had a recurring tag line that went "you want to possess me!" its making me laugh just to think about it.

an interesting aspect to your thought danik is how Mitchell describes their last bit of lovemaking on p783: "suddenly she had a wild thrill such as she had never known; joy, fear, madness, excitement, surrender to arms that were too strong, lips too bruising, fate that moved too fast. for the first time in her life she had met someone, something stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break, someone who was bullying and breaking her. somehow her arms were around his neck and her lips trembling beneath his and they were going up, up into the darkness again, a darkness that was soft and swirling and all enveloping...the man who had carried her up the dark stairs was a stranger of whose existence she had not dreamed. and now, through she tried to make herself hate him, tried to be indignant, she could not. he had humbled her, hurt her, used her brutally through a wild mad night and she had gloried in it.

"oh she should be ashamed, should shrink from the very memory of the hot swirling darkness! a lady, a real lady, could never hold up her head after such a night. but, stronger than shame, was the memory of the rapture, of the ecstasy of surrender..."

[Danik 2016]

I loved this last post, bounty. It doesn't show only the essential battle of power and desire between the two, it also shows how the convention of "being a lady" tends to interfere even in the moment of surrender.
Have you ever read the play "Who is afraid of Virginia Woolf?" by Edward Albee? Though the protagonists are a very different kind of people there love story is sustained by they hurting each other.

[bounty]

I have the play danik, but haven't read it yet.

to the very point of what youre saying though, you must hunt up the song by brad paisley and demi Lovato called without a fight.

im also reminded of a controversial sex/rape scene from the movie a history of violence. it stars viggo mortensen and maria bello as a married couple. he used to be a bad guy, now he's not anymore, but his past caught up to him, and maria takes major offense at the deception. if I remember rightly, she slaps him, and walks away up the stairs, he goes after her and grabs her ankle, she kicks at him, he subdues her and before you know it....

you might be able to find the scene online somewhere.

I think I shared this quote before. it seems timely to share it again:

“He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

[bounty]

People seem to miss the essential point of the novel. The exceptional thing is that it shows a war through the eyes of the losers, the South. It gives insight in the Civil War, the abolition and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. I would call it one of the greatest American novels.

Calling it a soap is ridiculous. It's better to compare it to Anna Karenina. Scarlett is an antiheroin who isn't interested in the war, but only in the unreachable Ashley. Rhett is a smart opportunist who gets rich during the war and sees through Scarlett.

im onboard with the "one of the great American novels" sentiment.

and im still wondering what distinguishes a "soap" from many other written works containing human drama, or even why calling it that, if it indeed IS that, is derogatory somehow.

[Danik 2016]

I have the play danik, but haven't read it yet.

to the very point of what youre saying though, you must hunt up the song by brad paisley and demi Lovato called without a fight.

im also reminded of a controversial sex/rape scene from the movie a history of violence. it stars viggo mortensen and maria bello as a married couple. he used to be a bad guy, now he's not anymore, but his past caught up to him, and maria takes major offense at the deception. if I remember rightly, she slaps him, and walks away up the stairs, he goes after her and grabs her ankle, she kicks at him, he subdues her and before you know it....

you might be able to find the scene online somewhere.

I think I shared this quote before. it seems timely to share it again:

“He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

Maybe you take a look at it sometimes. It is very enlightening as to what deep love coupled with frustration can lead.
I´ll hunt for the song, thanks for the tip also for the film scene.

Sexism is a bad reality here in Brazil. Almost every day one reads in the news about raped women or good looking young women killed usually by their former partners or boyfriends, who don´t accept the end of the relationship. It´s the idea of possession that is still very strong even at a time when women are getting financially and emotionally independent.

But in the case of Scarlett and Rhett there is an ambiguity, there is desire going against convention even as they are married( the woman has to behave like a lady and the man as a gentleman even in an intimate situation.

Ithink the quote applies better to Rhett Than to boring Frank Kennedy.

[Danik 2016]

im onboard with the "one of the great American novels" sentiment.

and im still wondering what distinguishes a "soap" from many other written works containing human drama, or even why calling it that, if it indeed IS that, is derogatory somehow.

"Wordeater" is now active on my other forum. I mainly agree with his/her opinion though I wouldn´t compare it to Anna Karenina.

As for the "soapy' I am a great fan of it. What happens with it IMO, is that it is commercially dependence on audience and propaganda. Most "soapys" here in Brazil are so called "open products". Differently as happens with the series, they can be changed according to the wish of their audience while they still are produced. Therefore they are considered a commercial and not an artistic product. In spite of it, we have had some very good soap operas which beside the standard love story address social, cultural and historical problems. You see, in a country, where most people watch TV but don´t read books, they somehow replace the written novel.

[bounty]

i'll be through with gone with the wind soon and will be looking for something else to read. I just started an elvis Presley biography but I don't like to just read non-fiction, so maybe i'll hunt up woolf. it might be a challenge to find though. all my paperback fiction books are roughly alphabetized and in plain view but I haven't been as consistent with drama. I think I have them in 3 different places maybe and I cant remember the last time I even saw that one.

i'll look forward to hearing what you think of the song (and the movie scene too). as an aside, demi Lovato kills it on some of the high notes near the end, in the 2:50 to 3:30ish range.

if you like it---a lesser version of the same sentiment can be found in luke bryan's kiss tomorrow goodbye.

its sad to hear such things. I understand in the past, although maybe it still goes on to an extent, muslim men would throw acid in women's faces.

oh for sure Rhett, not frank. in fact, I think I posted this earlier, its frank's acquiescence to scarlett's willfulness that paradoxically causes her to have contempt for him.

maybe this is somewhat related to the notion of women liking the "bad boy."

[Danik 2016]

Seems you have got a bit tired of Scarlett O' Hara's adventures, Bounty. It´s an extensive book after all.
I´ll look for the song and the play later. I have to do things slowly these days (bad eyesight).

The problem with the "bad boys" as you call them, I think, is that they don´t have the word "danger" written on their forehead. Of course, there are "bad girls" too. But there are less lethal issues because of the difference in physical strenght.

[bounty]

ive been drawing out the ending danik by reading less gone with the wind and more elvis Presley, but it just came to me today that I actually have scarlett with is a sequel written in 1991 by Alexandra ripley.

no pressure at all, but if I read it sometime in the near future, and open back up the thread here, would you be interested to join in again?

I think "bad boys" do have danger written all over them. there are three prevailing theories as to why women still date them. one is, they are attracted to danger. another is that they lack self respect and are attracted to men who will treat them badly. another is that their mothering instinct kicks in with men who need fixing.

meanwhile, scarlett's pregnant again!

[Danik 2016]

I sure would, even if I haven't read the book. I'm rather curious what this new author would add to the story.
The case with Scarlett is that she denies the attraction. At some level she trusts Rhett more than Ashley, because it is him she calls in when she needs help.
Some men are also attracted to bad girls. I think, as you say, danger becomes a challenge.

Now comes an important part of the story.
Speaking of pregnant, how is Spritzer?

[Sancho]

I have a coworker who’s been through a string of “bad boys”. I asked her once why she keeps doing that to herself. Her reply was - well … it usually doesn’t end well, but at least it’s not boring.

[bounty]

well danik, on your "important part of the story" sentiment!

a lot has happened in the book since I was least here---still slowly drawing out the ending (I only have 12ish pages left).

scarlett had a miscarriage, bonnie was killed in a riding accident, and melanie either just died or is about to---holy cow!

I was waffling quite a bit on watching the movie, now im sure i'll put it off for quite awhile. way too much sadness...

and to that point danik---maybe scarlett gives the reader a shot at happy ending redemption.

on the topic of redemption---the movie forrest gump is about a lot of things, but I think the bestest thing its about is how forrest's
dutifulness and steadfast love redeems lieutenant dan, and more importantly, jenny. it takes melanie being on her deathbed for scarlett to finally realize what a rock melanie has been in her life, and how foolish she has been to love Ashley, and to not give herself to Rhett as she could have/should have.

that all seems like a lead-in to the famous "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" utterance...

[bounty]

I appreciate your asking about spritzer, thank you. she's really good. its been about a month now that ive stopped feeding the birds so ive let her journey back outside. she knows she's not "captive" really as she comes and goes dependent on the weather and her desire to eat. she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away.

[bounty]

I love this book too and read it when I was 12. I think that it has some significance, but it really is a soap opera. It's foolish it even suggest comparing it to Tolstoy.

I don't think ive replied to this one yet...

another 12yr old reading this whoppin' big book! even though i wouldn't call gone with the wind "chick lot" I still plan to check everyone's gender.

I know that all of Tolstoy isn't war and peace but I read that book last year, and its similar in scope so i'll use that for commentary. one huge difference between the two is that the former was frequently boring and tedious. there was also a ton of writing that went on that pretty much did nothing to forward the story. for my taste, there were also too many characters being written about.

in short, if war and peace was lots more like gone with the wind it would have been enjoyable as opposed to a chore. im glad I read it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

maybe i'll give anna Karenina a shot someday...