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Thread: Heaven or hell?

  1. #31
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    God can not be contained within a logical frame.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  2. #32
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    I don't believe in an afterlife, but if heaven and hell did exist and I had the choice, I would choose hell. Then I could meet most of my favorite authors, philosophers, musicians, etc.
    "A man must dream a long time in order to act with grandeur, and dreaming is nursed in darkness." -- Jean Genet

  3. #33
    Pewter Pots! eyemaker's Avatar
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    really?? !

    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise."

    -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

  4. #34
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chester View Post
    Well it's actually more of a philosophical question than a scientific one. If it's accepted that the universe is "all that exists", all that is of time and space, then that which is not of the universe would be nothing. See? There's either something or nothing.

    Strangely enough it was me who invoked the philosophical conundrum of perfection earlier in the thread. The Christian idea of course is that free will allows us to act in ways that are not of God. Until man, the universe was perfect. It was good. But once good comes into existence, with it comes evil, at least in concept. Just as dark exists as absence of light and cold exists as absence of heat. It was man, acting in a way not of God (symbolized naturally by the fall in Eden) that made evil manifest in time and space, bringing it from concept to reality. It is this that separates us from God, according to this view. One I kind of like. God remains perfect. The imperfection of the universe is man-made.
    I am always skeptical of these issues, god, heaven and of the fact that God created this universe. That God created this universe and he created man so that he would be prayed and that he loves to be prayed, worshiped is something I can comfort myself with at all.

    God or something there is absolutely a subject that is not imaginable in point of fact and not arguable at all.

    Praying and not praying does not make a difference at all. God is now within a periphery of attributes.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  5. #35
    Within Me Within Me's Avatar
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    That`s Huge !!
    well, my very own poor opinion is, the life we are currently living is The Hell itself.Nothing is going right. Children,woman,old men,men HUMANS are dying. Hunger is taking over millions of humans. "The Hell" and "The Suffering" my grandma used to tell me about Is right infront of me, and the image in my head is completed.
    And heaven? well ... Maybe .. and its my poor guess .. it might be The Gift.
    I can`t really imagine a (( Heller )) hell than our Lives.
    Am i off the issue ??
    hehehe i`m sorry !!

  6. #36
    Registered User DapperDrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    God can not be contained within a logical frame.
    In other words God is an illogical concept, or perhaps a superlogical concept but that's the same thing.
    Pfft, who needs logic anyway, its only of any use for boring things.

    "Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness."

    until you give it a name and some attributes, just because its not our universe (space, time, matter, energy) does not mean its nothing - we simply just don't know anything about it.
    Suicide carried off many. Drink and the devil took care of the rest. - R L Stevenson

    Currently Reading: Dead Souls - Gogol

  7. #37
    Not politically correct Pendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DapperDrake View Post
    In other words God is an illogical concept, or perhaps a superlogical concept but that's the same thing.
    Pfft, who needs logic anyway, its only of any use for boring things.

    "Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness."

    until you give it a name and some attributes, just because its not our universe (space, time, matter, energy) does not mean its nothing - we simply just don't know anything about it.
    And this seems reasonable, until someone calls it an "afterlife", "heaven", "hell", "The Promised Land", "Nivarna", or something like and then people point to that as base illogical and totally unreasonable. Hummm. Well, we can't have it both ways, either it is nothing or it is to be assumed that there is something, call it what you will. Free will. Choice.

    God Bless

    Pen
    Some of us laugh
    Some of us cry
    Some of us smoke
    Some of us lie
    But it's all just the way
    that we cope with our lives...

  8. #38
    Registered User RichardHresko's Avatar
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    Heaven and Hell in Christian tradition have involved the person receiving in the afterlife the reality of what he or she has chosen (I'll comment on the ability to choose efficaciously a little further down).

    In this view a person is not so much punished for sins externally (the fire and brimstone bit) but rather experiences the sin and the effects of sin on the soul without filters. A good illustration of this can be found in Dante's Inferno, and the corrupting power of sin on the soul is also poignantly shown in the description of slaveholders in Frederick Douglass' Narrative.

    The reason that the result is eternal is based on the belief that at death the person no longer has the ability to make a new choice. Hence the emphasis on the need for a spirit of repentance before death. Dante's Purgatorio is a wonderfully readable presentation of this idea, especially in the first several cantos dealing with ante-Purgatory. While not Church doctrine, Dante was clearly aware of Church teaching (see, for example, his understanding of Thomism in Canto IV of the Purgatorio).

    Heaven is the attainment of the experience of the activity of the Supreme Good (God) by those who have loved the Supreme Good. For Christians it is necessary to have known and believed the Gospel to be able to have this love.

    Given these ideas it is true that those who have not heard the Gospel can not go to Heaven. This does not mean that such souls are doomed to torment. Far from it. A good non-Christian attains a state of happiness. However, this state falls short of Heaven as defined above.

    Now here is the difficult part. The Western tradition, based on Augustine, teaches that in order to truly desire God one has to be given the grace to do so by God. Without going through all the arguments the essential idea (from Paul's letter to the Romans) is that human nature is incapable of earning salvation, and that even the act of true faith must be initiated by God.

    The question of whether God offers this grace to everyone is at the heart of the doctrine of predestination, which in its most common form is based on Augustine's interpretation of Paul (and later developed by Calvin, among others).
    aude sapere

  9. #39
    People go to churches daily in order to pray to God to forgive their sins and coveting themselves a auspicious future.Humanity do not know genuinely whether there is hell or heaven,but since it is believed,then humanity shall abide by God's rules,to live harmoniously,etc.

  10. #40
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricP View Post
    I don't believe in an afterlife, but if heaven and hell did exist and I had the choice, I would choose hell. Then I could meet most of my favorite authors, philosophers, musicians, etc.
    Yes I agree

    In the words of Nietzsche "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."

    Of course I do not actually believe in heaven or hell, but hypothetically speaking. I do not perceive Heaven as where the good people go and Hell where the bad people go.

    The way I see it is:

    Heaven = Christians
    Hell= Non-Christians.

    My preception of Heaven and Hell is that it does not matter the deeds you do or how you live your life, only the God you worship and how you pray.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  11. #41
    Registered User RichardHresko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur lim View Post
    People go to churches daily in order to pray to God to forgive their sins and coveting themselves a auspicious future.Humanity do not know genuinely whether there is hell or heaven,but since it is believed,then humanity shall abide by God's rules,to live harmoniously,etc.
    When there is a large number of people involved in a faith, organization, movement, etc. it is nearly a mathematical certainty that there will be a wide range of beliefs within that group of people. Therefore there is probably little point to pick out some people who believe this or that unless it can be shown that either that is the dominant belief within the group or that it is representative of the doctrines of the group. In the case of Christianity, with well more than a billion believers alive now, the latter path makes more sense, since the former is probably not physically possible to determine.
    aude sapere

  12. #42
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    "In the words of Nietzsche "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing.""

    What does that say about Nietsche? Only that, like many of us, he considers evil to be more interesting than good.
    Voices mysterious far and near,
    Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
    Are calling and whispering in my ear,
    Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?

  13. #43
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Well in my view it is not truly evil people that go to hell, but simply anyone who happens not to be Christain. Though I know Christains do tend to think that anyone who isn't Christain is is by definition evil.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  14. #44
    Cur etiam hic es? Redzeppelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Well in my view it is not truly evil people that go to hell, but simply anyone who happens not to be Christain. Though I know Christains do tend to think that anyone who isn't Christain is is by definition evil.
    Your last statement is only true about the smallest degree of radical fringe Christians. Real Christians - the majority who have grown in maturity and understanding - acknowledge that they too - without the indwelling of Christ in our hearts - are just as evil as anybody who claims no affiliation to Christianity.

    Jesus said "I am the way" not "Christianity is the way." It is not Christianity that saves anybody, but Christ who does so. There will be people in heaven who claimed nothing connected with Christianity but who knew Jesus (even if not by the name we know - cf. CS Lewis's treatment of this topic in The Last Battle, the final installment of the Narnia series).

    Not all roads lead to God, but God will travel any road to find us.

    Hell is a chosen destination - not a sentence.

    As God's children, we must remember that it would be no easier for God to "sentence" one of His children to hell than any loving human parent to do the same. That "children" stuff isn't just pretty metaphoric stuff - God really sees us as HIS children. In fact, He loves us so much that He gave us the independence we demanded, even though He knew it would hurt us.
    "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis

  15. #45
    Not politically correct Pendragon's Avatar
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    There is a statement in the First Pirates of the Caribbean movie I Found interesting. Barbosa in trying to explain what their curse is speaks of food turning to ashes in the mouth and no amount of drink or pleasurable company would suffice. This has been a long held version of hell, that the "burning flame" is desire, having them all but never able to take pleasure in them. A thought anyway...

    God Bless

    Pen
    Some of us laugh
    Some of us cry
    Some of us smoke
    Some of us lie
    But it's all just the way
    that we cope with our lives...

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