Heaven or hell?

[Mariami]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

[Cezar_TheScribe]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone sins and everyone will die because of sin. No one on earth is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. The only difference would be those who accept Jesus as their Savior and follow scripture. They are sinners saved by grace.

The self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites.

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 1:28 (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


They also forget Romans chapter six.
Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Anyone walking around with the attitude God will just forgive me, is fooling themselves. We are to ask for forgiveness and not give into lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-13 (KJV)
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

As God sees it there is only black and white, there's God's way and there is man's way. No, one can work their way to Heaven.
But, faith without works is dead.

[Chester]

Hi Mariami. I can imagine a kind of scattering of consiousness upon death. That which is of God (good) returns to God. That which is not of God is logically prevented from doing so (perfection cannot accept imperfection). Hell, then, is a state of complete separation from God for that which is unable to become one with the divine.

That's this Christian's perspective, but it comes with the caveat that I am not a literalist.

[Dori]

Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone sins and everyone will die because of sin. No one on earth is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. The only difference would be those who accept Jesus as their Savior and follow scripture. They are sinners saved by grace.

The self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites.

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 1:28 (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


They also forget Romans chapter six.
Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Anyone walking around with the attitude God will just forgive me, is fooling themselves. We are to ask for forgiveness and not give into lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-13 (KJV)
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

As God sees it there is only black and white, there's God's way and there is man's way. No, one can work their way to Heaven.
But, faith without works is dead.

Wow, excellent post for a new person. Welcome to Litnet.

[El Viejo]

I always wondered how religious people saw it.

Heaven is a place for good people, while hell for bad. But that's like seeing world in just black and white. There are people who are neither bad nor good. Some have good intentions, right morals, yet don't believe in god. (see: myself)
Some believe and go to church every sunday yet sin much more than I do.
There is also category which niether believes, nor is particularly food person at heart, but hasn't done anything bad in his/her life etc.
And so so many more.

95% of the population hasn't stolen, killed, maimed etc. Yet they have all sinned repeatedly. Where do they go?

Having asked this question to many of my friends who strongly believe, I only got the answer that It wasn't for us to judge, but
STILL
I wonder, where do 90% of the people, who are neither mostly good or bad go after dying, in Christians opinions.

The scripture quotes from Cezar_TheScribe make it sort of clear that sin is human nature, and everyone, 100% of us, are destined for hell, except those who accept Christ.

But the devil, if you will, is in the details: what does it mean to accept Christ? Volumes have been written on the subject, and Christianity is split into a couple of thousand factions on that matter. Many would disagree sharply with your suggestion that it's possible for a person to be neither mostly good or bad. You can't get a generic "Christian" perspective.

If you want to know where you're going to go, you'll have to wait until you get there.

[Mariami]

Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone sins and everyone will die because of sin. No one on earth is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. The only difference would be those who accept Jesus as their Savior and follow scripture. They are sinners saved by grace.

The self proclaimed Christians are hypocrites.

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV)
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 (KJV)
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 1:28 (KJV)
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


They also forget Romans chapter six.
Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Anyone walking around with the attitude God will just forgive me, is fooling themselves. We are to ask for forgiveness and not give into lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-13 (KJV)
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

As God sees it there is only black and white, there's God's way and there is man's way. No, one can work their way to Heaven.
But, faith without works is dead.

The scripture quotes from Cezar_TheScribe make it sort of clear that sin is human nature, and everyone, 100% of us, are destined for hell, except those who accept Christ.

I'll give you an example then.

Being from third world country, I know there are small villiges of about 20 or so people that have niether wondered nor heard anything about gods existense.
Let's take a man who has worked all his life and has done nothing wrong, caring about those close to him and always helping those in need, yet, having never heard of god, he neither believes in him nor reads scripture.

Does he go to hell because he isn't believer?

[Chester]

Does he go to hell because he isn't believer?

"Yes" would probably be the only answer you're likely to get from a literalist, but I'm willing to wait and see.

[dzebra]

I know there are small villiges of about 20 or so people that have niether wondered nor heard anything about gods existense.

I bet they do wonder.


And what about Gandhi? He wasn't a Christian, but he did lots of good things. Does he go to hell?

Heaven is a place where people can be with God all the time. It makes sense to me that the only people who would go into heaven would be God's people.

Suppose I was throwing a party and I told a lot of people about my party. They could go and tell other people, who could then talk to me to get to know me. When I get to know them, I'll invite them to my party.
My party day gets here. Everyone who has heard about it comes over to party. I won't let in the people who I don't know, who didn't take time to come meet me. I won't let in the people who know me but hate me. I won't let in the people who know me, but pretend they don't know me when I'm not around. I'll let in the people who heard about me and met me and became my friends and try to make me smile.

[Mariami]

Heaven is a place where people can be with God all the time. It makes sense to me that the only people who would go into heaven would be God's people.

Okay, let's make everything clear here. According to bible, there are two places where person can go after dying, heaven and hell.

Heaven is brilliant place, while in hell, people suffer greatly.

God sees all of us as his children. After dying, we got placed either in heaven or in hell according to how we lived our life.

So, you say that, god would make his child suffer a great deal of pain, just because said child has never heard of him?

Suppose I was throwing a party and I told a lot of people about my party. They could go and tell other people, who could then talk to me to get to know me. When I get to know them, I'll invite them to my party.
My party day gets here. Everyone who has heard about it comes over to party. I won't let in the people who I don't know, who didn't take time to come meet me. I won't let in the people who know me but hate me. I won't let in the people who know me, but pretend they don't know me when I'm not around. I'll let in the people who heard about me and met me and became my friends and try to make me smile.

Completely different situation.

Those that you won't let in your party would just go back home. While if god doesn't let us to heaven, we get to go to hell, where we have to suffer.
Plus, you don't see us as your children.

Now imagine you have 10 kids, 5 of who did what you said, while the other 5 misbehaved. You admit yourself, that no one is perfect. You also say you love them.
Would you disown the five helpless children that have 'sinned'?

Any normal parent keeps his/her kids because he/she loves them. At least keeps them until they become of age, so they can fend for themselves.

No parent would let their kid suffer great pain permanently for misbehaving or for not having been able to hear your (parents) orders/advice and therefore not following it. Epecially second, especially when said parent claims that he loves us.
Don't you agree?

[Chester]

Mariami,

I don’t mean to interfere in this conversation any more than I have, but I have a tendency to come at these things from a philosophical standpoint, and maybe this might help:

Can you see how it would logically be impossible for a perfect being to accept imperfection without the perfection being compromised? It might not be that God has a choice as to who to allow into "the party." It might be that that part of a human consciousness that is tainted by that which is ungodly merely cannot connect with that which is godly. There isn’t an option, in other words. Perfection is not imperfection. Never the twain can meet.

The only remaining question, then, is how this is solved. Literal (fundamentalist) Christians believe one thing (and only one thing) while the rest of us believe something else.

[El Viejo]

Mariami,

You won't find your answer in this forum. Christians do not agree on what it means to be a Christian, they do not agree on how one gets into heaven or hell, they do not even agree on the nature of heaven or hell. Ask your questions of as many people of different Christian faiths as you can. You'll still have most, or all, of your questions, and perhaps some new ones besides. But in the long run, this won't be a bad thing.

[togre]

Though justice be thy plea, consider this: when in the course of justice would you and I see heaven? ---Shakespear


Mariami, as Cezar pointed out, Scripture makes very clear that no one deserves to go to heaven. You, me, everyone deserves to go to hell.

That's sad! That's terrible. But that is just as Chester also pointed out. Perfect God cannot, and should not, be the indulgent grandfather that just ignores sin and rewards the wicked.


But (here the amazing part) as just and perfect as God is, He is equally loving and merciful. He does not want people to go to hell. So how can he bring sinners to be with him in heaven without being unjust? He gave up his Son as a substitute to pay the price our sins deserved. He won for us what we could never earn or deserve. He won it for all people.

But if people reject him and reject his gift, how can he give it to them? Should he drag unbelievers into a heaven they reject to be with the God they reject?

[Chester]

...as Chester also pointed out

I just have to get it on the record, though I had hoped it was clear, that I do not see God in the anthropomorphic way in which God is being presented on this thread.

[togre]

Sorry Chester. I didn't mean to put words into your mouth.

I do think your way of defining the absolute incompatibility of perfection and imperfection/sin and righteousness(whether you hold this view or not) was quite succinct.

[Chester]

No worries. Just wanted to clarify.