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Thread: Satan - a different perspective

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Why did God create the Devil?

    Almost all religions subscribe to the existence of the Devil.
    God is described as living in heaven, has many archengels. But why did hee create the Devil. Or is God helpless? If he is helpless are there other forces stronger than God?

    Why God create the Devil? Just to punish us?

    The world is a garden and evil forces are weeds. Why does not he weed out them?

    We all are said to be his children. But no parents choose to see one child enjoying and the other suffering.

    Even Mother Teresa suspected the existence of God on this count.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    Asa Nisi Masa mayneverhave's Avatar
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    The problem of evil has long been a criticism against theology for quite some time. Many apologists and theologians (I believe Thomas Aquinas, especially) have sought to rectify the problem of evil and Satan's existence.

    I believe the typical answer to why Satan exists is that, being a creation of God, Satan was given free-will. With his free will, Satan(Lucifer) exercised his ability to defy God - though various motivations have been given for this, they all result in the same conclusion. This idea of free-will has also been used as an answer to not only the existence of Satan, but also the problem of evil in the world and in human actions.

    Though I don't claim to be an expert on Christian theology, I believe free-will figures definitively in rectifying the problem of evil.

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayneverhave View Post
    The problem of evil has long been a criticism against theology for quite some time. Many apologists and theologians (I believe Thomas Aquinas, especially) have sought to rectify the problem of evil and Satan's existence.

    I believe the typical answer to why Satan exists is that, being a creation of God, Satan was given free-will. With his free will, Satan(Lucifer) exercised his ability to defy God - though various motivations have been given for this, they all result in the same conclusion. This idea of free-will has also been used as an answer to not only the existence of Satan, but also the problem of evil in the world and in human actions.

    Though I don't claim to be an expert on Christian theolog, I believe free-will figures definitively in rectifying the problem of evil.
    I have not read religious texts or comments much and I am really greatly confused about the existence of Free Will. I think totally independent of all maxims or sets of theories. In point of fact Free Will is invented by religious preachers, and is a kind of excuse against all logical and arguments.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    Cur etiam hic es? Redzeppelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    I have not read religious texts or comments much and I am really greatly confused about the existence of Free Will. I think totally independent of all maxims or sets of theories. In point of fact Free Will is invented by religious preachers, and is a kind of excuse against all logical and arguments.
    No. Free will is the only logical explanation for the existence of evil in the universe. No loving God could willingly create that which He knew would be evil; but, since God is love, and He desires to give and receive love, He had to take a risk by giving His created creatures the choice to love or reject Him - because love cannot exist by coercion - it must be freely given. Free will is not an intellectual construct - it is the necessary condition of the universe if love is to exist at all.
    "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redzeppelin View Post
    No. Free will is the only logical explanation for the existence of evil in the universe. No loving God could willingly create that which He knew would be evil; but, since God is love, and He desires to give and receive love, He had to take a risk by giving His created creatures the choice to love or reject Him - because love cannot exist by coercion - it must be freely given. Free will is not an intellectual construct - it is the necessary condition of the universe if love is to exist at all.
    There are no choices, and man does not hate or love out of choice; you love some one because you find him or her deserving or worthy of love and in a similar vein one becomes compelled to hate.

    You fall for someone out of need, a biological or emotional atnd start loving the person you set your eye on not out of choice but out of the desire of fulfilment.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Satan - a different perspective

    Satan, a very name, disgusting indeed. A rebel who waged a thousand battles out of rebellion and insurrection. Someone who was expelled from heaven, and indeed a subject of aversion.

    I do not hate Satan, not withstanding the fact that he was against God.

    God is Authority, a power that rules over all, and it is a symbol of tyrrany, something that believes that the rest are his subjects. I do not worship a god of despotism. A tyrrant is someone I am set against.

    Our scriptures make mentions of such Gods.

    God is indifferent to Good or bad and depicts equanimity towards all. At his level there is no difference and has no attitudnal differences whether one is a sinner or saint.

    Sacredness and profanity, both are indeed attributes of the mind not of the person. For everyone by nature, even a murderer is pure, and of course it is externals or cirucumstances he responds differently, and under a different stimulus he may act differently. Change of heart is what I believe in.

    Satan is a temporary phenomenon, and he can be a saint under a different cirucumstance and everyone is capable and even Satan to attain divinity.
    Divinity is not a state to submit to the supremacy of God.

    Divinity is something we attain when we pervade through the univerarsal soul.

    Let us not hate Satan and worship God alone. Let us be understanding.
    All contribute to the making of the world.

    Satan and God, both are condensed into the making of ourselves.

    Let us unlearn all and deprogram our mind. We have to remove the stuff in our
    mind filled by bookish knowledge.

    Let us live like man not like deities.

    All deities are not faultless and flawless and not equanimous.

    Basically there is no difference between Satan and deities.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  7. #7
    Of course free will exists for most things, like what we eat or do with our lives, but yes, love is a biological phenomenon, and can be altered with chemicals and gene manipulation.

    The alternative to the view that free will is the only way to explain evil, since God is all good, is that it's possible that either God isn't perfect and good, or that he's not there at all.

    Another absence of free will is belief. You can fake it, but you can't genuinely "choose" it. I'm an atheist, and no matter how hard I try, I can't really believe in God. The most I could do was act like it and delude myself.

    What I've never understood about Christian theology is that if the devil is really a fallen angel, who disobeyed God, why wouldn't he reward sinners and anyone who rejects God, as a way of undermining him. If the devil really does punish sinners, that would be playing right into God's hands, wouldn't it?

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    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
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    "Why God create the Devil?"


    Evil is as evil does.

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    Yes, and the different perspective lies where?

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellsapoppin View Post
    "Why God create the Devil?"


    Evil is as evil does.
    Here the point is the wolrld was created by God according to scriptures and the question is why did God create the devil?

    If everything was created by God, by the same token the devil too was created by God only.

    God, it seems, purposely created devil, and if so there was no point criticizing devil.

    I think everything is related and devil is an integral part of us, for that matter devil is not a thing to be eliminated.

    God and devil both coexist, and one affirms the existence of the other.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  11. #11
    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
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    "God, it seems, purposely created devil, and if so there was no point criticizing devil. "


    This is a point I have tried to make on other threads. The so called devil is only this god's tool and was created for the purpose of being one.

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    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    "Dwelling on the unpleasant causes grief." - The Buddha.

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    Registered User hellsapoppin's Avatar
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    "The truth shall set you free"

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    from what i understand ( from the little i've read of theology and history of jews and christians) it really wasn't believed that there was a definite particular satan, like i am actually a particular alicia. he was rather a collective demon, and capable of afflicting or possessing man to sin, have disease, be poor, be a prostitute, whatever...i don't believe the jews have a concept of hell..at least not like christians...i think it was a bit later in the world when dogma/rules and churches began to take authority of the people that we had the notion of free will and a "Satan" that divied up men with god. now, i could be way off; i may be talking nonsense actually...(i follow the great god bacchus)

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    Registered User Kent Edwins's Avatar
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    I think this section from John Milton (who wrote his life's work on Satan) is especially fitting to contribute to this discussion. Paradise Lost, Book III:

    I made him just and right,
    Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
    Such I created all the ethereal Powers
    And Spirits, both them who stood, and them who fail'd;
    Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell.
    Not free, what proof could they have given sincere
    Of true allegiance, constant faith or love,
    Where only what they needs must do appear'd,
    Not what they would? what praise could they receive?
    What pleasure I from such obedience paid,
    When will and reason (reason also is choice)
    Useless and vain, of freedom both despoil'd,
    Made passive both, had serv'd necessity,
    Not me? they therefore, as to right belong$ 'd,
    So were created, nor can justly accuse
    Their Maker, or their making, or their fate,
    As if predestination over-rul'd
    Their will dispos'd by absolute decree
    Or high foreknowledge they themselves decreed
    Their own revolt, not I; if I foreknew,
    Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault,
    Which had no less proved certain unforeknown.
    So without least impulse or shadow of fate,
    Or aught by me immutably foreseen,
    They trespass, authors to themselves in all
    Both what they judge, and what they choose; for so
    I form'd them free: and free they must remain,
    Till they enthrall themselves; I else must change
    Their nature, and revoke the high decree
    Unchangeable, eternal, which ordain'd
    $THeir freedom: they themselves ordain'd their fall.
    The first sort by their own suggestion fell,
    Self-tempted, self-deprav'd: Man falls, deceiv'd
    By the other first: Man therefore shall find grace,
    The other none
    Though men do not have free-will- or at least have a lesser degree of it than "ethereal powers"- they are unlike Satan in the sense that they were seduced by evil, whereas the angels were given free choice. Freedom of choice seems to be the very thing that makes the Ethereal powers so dignified in Milton's mind, as "free" actions count for more in heaven than forced ones.

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