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View Poll Results: should incest be legal?

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  • yes (between consenting adults)

    23 24.73%
  • yes, but only if they get sterilized

    4 4.30%
  • no!

    58 62.37%
  • not sure

    8 8.60%
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Thread: should incest between brothers and sisters be legal?

  1. #1
    Suzerain of Cost&Caution SleepyWitch's Avatar
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    Question should incest between brothers and sisters be legal?

    hey folks,
    a couple of weeks ago there was a ruling by the constitutional court of Germany that incest between brothers and sisters should remain illegal. The case involved a man who had four children with his sister and was sentenced to 2 years in prison. Their parents were divorced or something and they grew up in different families, so they only got to know each other as adults and fell in love. 2 of their 4 children are disabled, but doctors haven't been able to narrow down the cause of their disability. The mother (i.e. the sister of the father) is slightly mentally handicapped, too. The chief justice was in favour of legalizing incest, seeing as it is legal in some other countries, but the other judges outvoted him.
    Anyways, some of the arguments against legalization that the judges cited were:
    - the children of incestuous couples are likely to be disabled
    - the more vulnerable/weaker of the two partners has to be protected
    - the constitution says that families are the basic unit of society and have to be protected
    - incest puts a lot of strain on the families involved

    some arguments for legalization were:
    - disability can have many causes, e.g. when one/both parent(s) in a non-incestuous relationship are disabled themselves, the children are very likely to be disabled. However, disabled ppl are, of course, allowed to marry and have children
    - the incidence of incest is very low because normally children who grow up together (even if they are adopted and not genetically related at all) develop a psychological incest taboo, i.e. they will see the other children as their siblings and out of bounds sexually, even when they are NOT related. So legalizing incest would not result in a lot of ppl suddenly getting interested in it and practicing it.
    - Sleepy's own argument: why should one of the partners be more vulnerable and weaker than the other, as long as they are both of age and have all their faculties intact? In this particular case, the woman (sister) was more vulnerable because she was mentally handicapped, plus the man (brother) beat her. But this isn't always the case, so how can you tell which partner needs to be protected? Plus, there can be a "weaker" partner (battered wife or husband) in any relationship and yet ppl are not generally prevented from marrying. You can only define who is the weaker partner after abuse has taken place, not before ppl marry ???

    what do you think? (please refrain from comments about sodomy (sex with animals), pedophilia (I'm only referring to consenting adults, not kids or rape) and inflammatory analogies/comparisons of any kind. THANKS
    Last edited by SleepyWitch; 03-25-2008 at 06:30 AM.

  2. #2
    (: sprinks's Avatar
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    I don't think it should be. But that's probably because I've always been taught that it is VERY wrong and unacceptable, and it's always been shown in a bad light in movies and books etc, where you pretty much don't have the character involved in incest if you want the audience to sympathise and agree with that characters point of view.

  3. #3
    Metamorphosing Pensive's Avatar
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    Frankly speaking I just can't find any proper argument against it seeing that disabled people are allowed to marry too and also seeing that quoting passages from Quran or Bible or any other religious book wouldn't be convincing for others than the believer....but you know it sounds so damn sick...but then I am just thinking on an emotional level. Would be more than happy to see anybody posting some logical argument against it.

    So if it becomes legal...along with gay rights...we would be having two sisters married to each other and married brothers too. Erm interesting.
    Last edited by Pensive; 03-25-2008 at 06:27 AM.
    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

  4. #4
    Suzerain of Cost&Caution SleepyWitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensive View Post
    Frankly speaking I just can't find any proper argument against it seeing that disabled people are allowed to marry too and also seeing that quoting passages from Quran or Bible or any other religious book wouldn't be convincing for others than the believer....but you know it sounds so damn sick...but then I am just thinking on an emotional level. Would be more than happy to see anybody posting some logical argument against it.

    So if it becomes legal...along with gay rights...we would be having married sisters and married brothers too. Erm interesting.
    yeah, I don't find the idea very appealing myself but I've never heard any logical arguments against it either. I do think we need to separate the emotional level from logic here.

  5. #5
    loquacious cat mrawr
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    True, it might as well be legal. What business does the state have with interfereing or deciding over individuals? Same goes for gay rights really.

    Hmm, now i'm really curious to hear the logical arguments against; something other than, 'Think of the kids!', obviously there is some risk for the kids. First the genetic problems, and secondly they might find it awkward.
    But then again, there are so many ways of bringing up children around the world that i both agree and disagree with, so who can judge it?

    One of my close friends used to be super embarressed that her mom was living in a lesbian relationship, and never dared to invite friends over, because they were also vegan. Today though, she adores those memories. And well, she is bi herself.

    Oh man, the complexities of this issue! (Sorry for this utterly rambling post! I appear to have walked onto a tangent)

  6. #6
    Metamorphosing Pensive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chava View Post
    Hmm, now i'm really curious to hear the logical arguments against; something other than, 'Think of the kids!', obviously there is some risk for the kids. First the genetic problems, and secondly they might find it awkward.
    Even if one considers the genetic problem, ignoring Sleepy's argument against that genetic argument (though it shouldn't be ignored of course, and is quite interesting), shouldn't a relationship between two brothers or two sisters be okay if there are gay rights? I mean there are going to be no off-springs in this way....just a thought. Religious arguments or personal aesthetical sense, as I mentioned before, are another thing....
    I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

  7. #7
    loquacious cat mrawr
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    You know, you've got a point Pen! Remarkable observation.

  8. #8
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Oh Sleepy, please. How repulsive to even think this. Come on.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

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    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #9
    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    There was another case like this recently. I don't remember all the details but a brother and sister were adopted to different families and only found out they were brother and sister after being married (I think there were kids as well). I'm pretty sure there were no disabilities involved.

    Anyways on a personal level I think it's icky, however what two consenting adults do is they're own business.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


  10. #10
    espresso addict vheissu's Avatar
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    What two consenting adults do is indeed their own business but I think it's actually sad if two people who fall in love and form a family later discover that they are siblings. I can't even imagine the shock that they'd have to go through.

    Thankfully it doesn't happen too often! But I don't agree with legalizing incest at all. Maybe it's because I've done too much genetics and know what could happen to future generations. It's not just the kids that can have their genetic makeup affected, its the grandkids as well.
    Or maybe because I think it's just fundamentally wrong.

    I'm a bit lost with gay rights getting mixed in this topic: are you saying that it's ok for two sisters or two brothers to form a more intimate relationship and that they are also protected by gay rights? Have I completely mixed it up?

    Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. ~ Mark Twain

  11. #11
    (: sprinks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vheissu View Post
    I'm a bit lost with gay rights getting mixed in this topic: are you saying that it's ok for two sisters or two brothers to form a more intimate relationship and that they are also protected by gay rights? Have I completely mixed it up?
    I'm a bit confused too... Does the legalisation of incest really have to do with gay rights?

  12. #12
    loquacious cat mrawr
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    Well, the logical argument against incestuous relationships is the genetic outcome; mutations of the children. However, a gay relationship cannot produce offspring, hence, it should be legal for a gay pair of siblings to form a relationship.
    It's not got anything to do with gay rights. One might call it an intellectual experiment. It's deductive reasoning.

    Mind you deduction though common can also prove that Stevie Wonder is God, so be ware

  13. #13
    deus ex machina Shalot's Avatar
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    I've been trying to respond to this and I can't seem to come up with anything other than YUCK NO YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK NO NO

    *** edit: Our neighbors had a bunch of cats who kept inbreeding and the final result was this kitten who had a lot of health problems and she remained small. The vet attributed her problems and her smaller than normal frame to all the inbreeding. Isn't that one of the reasons why incest is illegal - the genetic mutations that Chava mentioned above?
    Last edited by Shalot; 03-25-2008 at 08:23 AM.
    "...if you weren't smart enough to get a pedophile in a dress to put a small amount of water on the child’s forehead, then what the eff did you think was going to happen?

  14. #14
    (: sprinks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chava View Post
    Well, the logical argument against incestuous relationships is the genetic outcome; mutations of the children. However, a gay relationship cannot produce offspring, hence, it should be legal for a gay pair of siblings to form a relationship.
    Ok thanks I get it now

  15. #15
    I *asked* for my account to be "deleted"
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    read Middlesex

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