March / Ireland Reading: Dubliners by James Joyce

[Scheherazade]

In March, we will be reading Dubliners by Joyce, who once said:

Writing in English is the most ingenious torture ever devised for sins commited in previous lives.

Please post your thoughts and questions on the book in this thread.

Book Club Procedures

[ben.!]

I finished Dubliners at the start of this year. I had read it for a looong time, since about the half-year (for some reason it took me a while!).

I have to say what's said to be the greatest short story ever written, The Dead I found didn't really strike a chord with me like in his other stories, such as Eveline, An Encounter or Two Gallants. I found them amazing, the little portraits he paints of everyday people going about everyday things, and how they suddenly have these little epiphanies about what they're life is really about...but keep doing whatever they're doing all the same!

Well, I guess I did find The Dead sort of struck a chord, but I mean, it was so long and drawn out...I think he could've halved the story and it the ending would have had a stronger impact, the bit in the hotel room, perhaps as a separate story.

The conversations of famous tenors and things over dinner was quite long and laborious. I guess all I really identified with was the beginning with the introductions of people, the...narrator, as it seemed to float from one place to the next in The Dead, you got the feeling you were just waltzing and swaying to different conversations. That was an awesome feeling, for me anyway. But yeah, I think a lot of The Dead could have been shortened somewhat.

But, all in all, really enjoyed Joyce's Dubliners! I'm psyching myself up to read Ulysses. That'll be a challenge. I'm waiting with abated breath until that day when I walk into a year 12 classroom, and being asked an all manner of questions about why I have such a huge book on top of my pile. Especially from the english teacher. Me reading Ulysses I think is an A+ for achievement straight off!

[Cailin]

The Dead left me somewhat for cold the first time I read it too. Then I went to the Joyce Centre and sat down at a live action version of the story where the audience were welcomed as guests. Returning to the story I found it extremely moving. Has anyone seen the John Huston film?

[NickAdams]

I've just finished Counterparts and found it the most engaging. My favorites so far are: An Encounter, Araby, A Little Cloud and Counterparts. I loved the end of After the Race.

They say nothing really happens in these stories, but I disagree and have ignored my wifes call for dinner because of my focus on Joyce's stories. Maybe it was different in Joyce's time, where people were use to the traditionl novel. The mundane and trivial has become the conviention, so it's not something I have to adapt to.

[Kent Edwins]

So far, I've read about half the stories. After reading Ulysses, this is a welcome change. I like the tight, descriptive prose, and I also disagree that the stories are "about nothing". If anything, they take very realistic situations and force you to reflect on them. I'm still not sure if this is a superior form of writing or not, but it's certainly an interesting one.

The story I most recently finished was The Two Gallants. I had the reread the last few paragraphs a few times, and still I'm not sure what the significance of the gold coin is. Can anyone elucidate the point that is supposed to make for me?

Joyce's vocabulary, by the way, is stellar. I've had to open a dictionary up at least a few times every story, only to still find myself baffled by the use of the word in the context Joyce uses it. For example, in the "The Sisters" how does one lay solemn and "copious" (bottom of page 5 in my Bantam Classics version)?

But, all in all, really enjoyed Joyce's Dubliners! I'm psyching myself up to read Ulysses. That'll be a challenge. I'm waiting with abated breath until that day when I walk into a year 12 classroom, and being asked an all manner of questions about why I have such a huge book on top of my pile. Especially from the english teacher. Me reading Ulysses I think is an A+ for achievement straight off!

This seems to be the biggest appeal of reading Ulysses. I suppose that, in the past, the books content was very fresh and controversial. Obviously, now our society embraces all manners of things that Joyce may have considered to be "taking it too far", so one of the biggest advantages to reading something like Ulysses is being able to say that you've read something less than 10% of the people who read it can understand.

Seriously, though, that's not the only reason to read the book. There's a lot going on there. Just don't do what I did and read it without any sort of help the first time around. Make sure to get a nice, annotated version. Or, then again, don't. Joyce didn't mean for it to be read annotated the first time, after all!

[ben.!]

This seems to be the biggest appeal of reading Ulysses. I suppose that, in the past, the books content was very fresh and controversial. Obviously, now our society embraces all manners of things that Joyce may have considered to be "taking it too far", so one of the biggest advantages to reading something like Ulysses is being able to say that you've read something less than 10% of the people who read it can understand.

Seriously, though, that's not the only reason to read the book. There's a lot going on there. Just don't do what I did and read it without any sort of help the first time around. Make sure to get a nice, annotated version. Or, then again, don't. Joyce didn't mean for it to be read annotated the first time, after all!

I'm also planning to read Ulysses is for the statement you just posed, that to be able to say I've read something that only 10% of the people who read it can understand. Plus being able to read one of the hardest novels ever written of the 20th century, and indeed one of the best novels written of the 20th century. I'm currently halfway through Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. That's a very interesting book too. I've been to the James Joyce centre, when I was in Dublin halfway through last year. I really enjoyed it, however I forgot what the thunder-words were in Finnegans' Wake...there was a little fact-note on the stairs that explained them...they're meant to be if you times the syllables or something they divide into a perfect 100...or something. I'd love to know what they meant again, because I thought that Joycean fact was cool.

Though I forgot to mention I enjoyed Counterparts as well, that's a good short story of his. Joyce, for me anyway, with his short stories, seems to write with this air of mysticism and the ethereal, as if the people he is characterizing are sort of...archetypes, frozen in time.

Did anyone else get that 'suspended archetypal animation' sort of feeling as they went? I also found them quite cold, as someone else previous has already mentioned, and quite dense to read.

[Kent Edwins]

Did anyone else get that 'suspended archetypal animation' sort of feeling as they went? I also found them quite cold, as someone else previous has already mentioned, and quite dense to read.

Now that you mention it, I do too. Not because the characters are some kind of far off paragons, but because the characters feel so real. These characters could just as well be you or me or anyone. So far, though, the character that has caught my attention the most is Eveline. In the introduction, it said that the character Eveline is supposed to represent Joyce's beloved Nora, only under different circumstances.

I'm currently halfway through Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. That's a very interesting book too. I've been to the James Joyce centre, when I was in Dublin halfway through last year. I really enjoyed it, however I forgot what the thunder-words were in Finnegans' Wake...

Good work. I need to get started on Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man myself. I've heard that it's the necessary prologue to Ulysses, as well as a book very worth reading by someone of my own age and considerably more tackle-able then Ulysses or, worst of all, Finnegan's Wake. I admit I'm afraid to touch that last one, but after I'm finished rereading Ulysses this summer perhaps that's something I'll look into doing.

[SleepyWitch]

I think I've got these stories somewhere in my bookshelf. If I can find the time to read them, I might join you guys

[NickAdams]

The story I most recently finished was The Two Gallants. I had the reread the last few paragraphs a few times, and still I'm not sure what the significance of the gold coin is. Can anyone elucidate the point that is supposed to make for me?

Joyce's vocabulary, by the way, is stellar. I've had to open a dictionary up at least a few times every story, only to still find myself baffled by the use of the word in the context Joyce uses it. For example, in the "The Sisters" how does one lay solemn and "copious" (bottom of page 5 in my Bantam Classics version)?

1: Lenehan had the women steal it from her employer.

2: Copious- full of thought, information, or matter.

Do you think the old man was masturbating when he left the boys in An Encounter?

[Niamh]

Still trying to locate my copy. Looks like i may have to buy it again.

[Kent Edwins]

Do you think the old man was masturbating when he left the boys in An Encounter?

It's very possible. Especially of the guilt associated with Masturbation in Catholicism, as Ireland was mostly Catholic (or at least Christian) at the time. I admit that that is the impression I got originally. The man leaves the children thinking somewhat lusty thoughts, and then reappears reprimanding himself and all those who express his previous views. This could represent not only that guilt, but the inconsistency between what many people practiced as opposed to what they preached.

I did read somewhere, I think in the introduction, that "Dubliners" are stories of anger that Joyce wrote. The common theme is that they all deal with things that were ruining Dublin at the time.

[Walter]

The Dead left me somewhat for cold the first time I read it too. Then I went to the Joyce Centre and sat down at a live action version of the story where the audience were welcomed as guests. Returning to the story I found it extremely moving. Has anyone seen the John Huston film?

Yes, it was absolutely beautiful!
And now I see I had better do some long-intended reading if I'm going to get into this discussion. Even if only for The Dead.

[NickAdams]

I can't remember the story in which it appears, it's one of the earlier ones, but Joyce uses the similie "shaking like a leaf". I wonder if the phrase was in common use in his time.

Does anybody think Joyce is inconsistent in his attempt of objectivity?

[Niamh]

I can't remember the story in which it appears, it's one of the earlier ones, but Joyce uses the similie "shaking like a leaf". I wonder if the phrase was in common use in his time.

Does anybody think Joyce is inconsistent in his attempt of objectivity?

Shaking like a leaf?
Thats a term we use in ireland to say you were terrified/ afraid, or freezing cold....

Dubliners is just displaying the life that Joyce saw and disliked about Dublin at the time. Each story is supposed to deal with realities he saw, and things people did. In the Dead, the dull conversation over dinner, and becoming aware of the reality but not doing anything about it and continuing on, is something that has happened to us all. Its like he's calling us all cowards, telling us to do something that we dont think we can. I mean how many of us have been slapped in the face by reality, but when it came to doing something about it, didnt, and continued on because it was expected of us?

[NickAdams]

Shaking like a leaf?
Thats a term we use in ireland to say you were terrified/ afraid, or freezing cold....

My mother used that term a lot and her mother was of Irish descent. I can't remember if it was used in first-person narrative or not. If yes then it's fine, because it's the characters voice, but it would be too cliche to be a part of an objective narrative.