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Thread: For what purpose does God exist, if he exists?

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    Registered User Splendour's Avatar
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    For what purpose does God exist, if he exists?

    So this particular question came to my mind, after watching a OVA of Saint Seiya (a popular Japanese anime in Asia and Europe, not in North America though), when the featured goddess Athena (more of a stereotypical Protector of Earth idea, not to be confused with the real Athena in Greek myth, though she is modeled after) asked this question to the Gods of Olympus who were prosecuting her Knights for fighting against the divines: "why do Gods exist? They exist for the humans. Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."

    For what purpose does God exist then, in today's religions? There are of course a million sociological/athropological, political or even (since all have been trying to use) scientific reasons. But let's for the sake of argument say that God does exist, then what's the purpose of existence? All religions endeavours to put purpose into our life, so what's God's?

    And if God just..exists. Can't we come back and say, similariy, humans can just exist...without a purpose and therefore God doesn't exist?

    And is that above answer posed by the Athena in anime also the answer to this question in the general context?
    Salvation comes, not because the miracle is illuminated by the rays of Hope, but because it is against the darkness of Despair.

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    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
    So this particular question came to my mind, after watching a OVA of Saint Seiya (a popular Japanese anime in Asia and Europe, not in North America though), when the featured goddess Athena (more of a stereotypical Protector of Earth idea, not to be confused with the real Athena in Greek myth, though she is modeled after) asked this question to the Gods of Olympus who were prosecuting her Knights for fighting against the divines: "why do Gods exist? They exist for the humans. Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."

    For what purpose does God exist then, in today's religions? There are of course a million sociological/athropological, political or even (since all have been trying to use) scientific reasons. But let's for the sake of argument say that God does exist, then what's the purpose of existence? All religions endeavours to put purpose into our life, so what's God's?

    And if God just..exists. Can't we come back and say, similariy, humans can just exist...without a purpose and therefore God doesn't exist?

    And is that above answer posed by the Athena in anime also the answer to this question in the general context?
    Good question.

    Religionists and particulary monotheist have grappled with this question and philosophers too. And they have come up with these kinds of answers.


    God is Prime Mover.

    First Cause.


    etc.

    Thus His/Her/it "Purpose" is thus to set things in motion.
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    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


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    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    I would assume it's something more than that, Lote.

    For instance to the question "what do we exist for?" my answer is that it's a laughably simplified question, and coming from a microscopic perspective, if it expects an answer in words. We only define these things by words by habit. We get too immersed in them and miss that we're not words, physical matter...is not the same as the word physical matter.

    And God, which is supposed to be the infinite, mysterious, would be that much more removed from our words.

    Nonetheless, we try to encapsulate him. I would say that God is the Creator. I don't know why (purpose), but I am pretty skeptical if it can be put into words.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I would assume it's something more than that, Lote.

    For instance to the question "what do we exist for?" my answer is that it's a laughably simplified question, and coming from a microscopic perspective, if it expects an answer in words. We only define these things by words by habit. We get too immersed in them and miss that we're not words, physical matter...is not the same as the word physical matter.

    And God, which is supposed to be the infinite, mysterious, would be that much more removed from our words.

    Nonetheless, we try to encapsulate him. I would say that God is the Creator. I don't know why (purpose), but I am pretty skeptical if it can be put into words.
    "Once you label me, you negate me." - Kierkegaard.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
    Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."

    There's only one God and he doesn't exist to serve us.
    Without God we wouldn't be here.

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    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morten View Post
    "Once you label me, you negate me." - Kierkegaard.
    So are you saying this in support of my main point, or did I not write it clearly at all, and you are trying to negate what I said because I called god a creator after I said that his purpose we couldn't put into words...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    So are you saying this in support of my main point, or did I not write it clearly at all, and you are trying to negate what I said because I called god a creator after I said that his purpose we couldn't put into words...
    Easy now. It was a quote I attributed in support of what you were saying.

    Not that I agree. Since the idea of god, to me, is as man-made as Dracula or a cyclops, it should be weird if we could not label him/her/they.

    Still, the quote was meant to reflect what you were saying to some degree.

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    God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own. We are not the Supreme Being. God is not here for us, but we are called to serve Him. That is our purpose. His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think. And if we would try I think that many of us would still confront it with negativity. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.

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    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainqt View Post
    God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own. We are not the Supreme Being. God is not here for us, but we are called to serve Him. That is our purpose. His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think. And if we would try I think that many of us would still confront it with negativity. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.
    This was well written, and I think reflects true understanding.

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    Resonance/Beauty. Mesalithasamut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainqt View Post
    God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own. We are not the Supreme Being. God is not here for us, but we are called to serve Him. That is our purpose. His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think. And if we would try I think that many of us would still confront it with negativity. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.
    I'm in agreement with you, Captainqt; and I think that Thomas Paine expressed it best: I trouble not myself about the manner of future existence. I content myself with believing, even to positive conviction, that the power that gave me existence is able to continue it, in any form and manner he pleases, either with or without this body; and it appears more probable to me that I shall continue to exist hereafter than that I should have had existence, as I now have, before that existence began.
    Honor and shame from no condition rise, act well your part there all the honor lies. - Alexander Pope.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Captainqt View Post
    God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own.
    Then how do you know he exists if you can't comprehend him?

    His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think.
    To believe his is intellectual suicide. And irrational.

    WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness.
    Prove it.

    Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.
    This is explains why you are religious. You can't accept the harsh biological realities of existence so you turn to a vague and illusory conception of "God". What about other living organisms? Flies? Birds? Wombats? Do they also go to heaven, or is there idea of eternal life not good enough for them?

    God is a human invention.

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    God is not a human invention. God is The Inventor.

    God's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the rocks will cry out. The universe itself glorifies God by its existence. God shows his power, wisdom, and love in his creation, and creation glorifies him.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dzebra View Post
    God is not a human invention. God is The Inventor.

    God's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the rocks will cry out. The universe itself glorifies God by its existence. God shows his power, wisdom, and love in his creation, and creation glorifies him.
    It is no more nonsensical to say the following, than it is to say what you have said above:

    The giant purple bunny's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the smaller, less purple bunnies will cry out. The universie itself glorifies the giant purple bunny by its existence. The giant purple bunny shows its power, wisdom, and love in its creation, and creation glorifies it.

    Problem is, how do you support any of these ridiculous claims? You're basically just talking from your rear-end. Please answer me this: How does the universe glorify god my its mere existence? How does god show his power, wisdom and love in his creation?

  14. #14
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morten59
    Problem is, how do you support any of these ridiculous claims? You're basically just talking from your rear-end. Please answer me this: How does the universe glorify god my its mere existence? How does god show his power, wisdom and love in his creation?
    I will address all of your points, straight forwardly, but you will address everyone with more respect. Who here has said to you " you are talking out of your butt "? I am speaking for more than myself when I say that you need to respect people here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dzebra
    ]God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morten
    Then how do you know he exists if you can't comprehend him?
    Remember there are two and more things here: the concept of God, and the essence of God, then the essence of the concept of God, of course. The concept of God is less than God, the essence of the concept is obviously more than the concept, and the essence of God is more than everything. I am not able to comprehend atoms, gravity, the movement of stars, calculus, many of these things, and many of them I cannot see with my eyes, either. Each of these is as vast an idea as the other. In the question of each of them there is their concept, their essence, related concepts, in fact the question always becomes very complicated. Yet all of them I accept as fact.

    there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own.

    "God as existence." "God as the source." Your severe, and of course entitled, opinion of these comments is that they are an over-simplification. Two things-- God has been written about-- that is, the concept or essence has been studied, expanded, translated into metaphysics by thousands or millions of geniuses, artists, monks or saints, and other intelligent individuals. It might be a shock to you to realize the intelligence of the people you converse with daily. In answer to your criticism, consider that of an infinite number of individuals, the one with the highest attributes of all that are good; intelligence, morality, joyfulness, strength, peace, love, fame, best understanding of god; the individual best in all of these categories, would still have an entirely human view of god. This is not because of how well we are able to comprehend the infinite, but exactly how well the infinite is able to be comprehended by any ability.

    Moving on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captainqt
    His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morten
    To believe his is intellectual suicide. And irrational.
    It took me a minute to realize by "To believe his is intellectual suicide." You meant "To believe this is intellectual suicide."

    Morten, you negate the intellect, ideas, experience, opinions, of billions of people. I can't speak for them, in that you didn't speak against them; that is, you didn't say they are irrational for their belief, only that they committed intellectual suicide on one point in their thinking. So you didn't say anything about their consciousnesses, but I cannot leave them out of this. All I can say is that the belief in God is not an irrational one for me. I'm aware of my consciousness, that is, of my body too, and in my mind, when I read or learn something, I can feel that I've learned it, the same when I do many different activities; and when I practice transcendental meditation, that's when I become of the most amazing thing in my mind; Krishna consciousness.

    Now, all this wasn't said to be a proof-- I'll get to that in a short moment. Now I understand that if you have a strong enough aversion to God, even hearing his name or contemplating him could give you a negative physical response. This is what makes the area so touchy. No need for stress for anyone. Anyway, the question which arises most skepticism in your questioning I will answer; the question of God as existence. We've spoken of him as infinite and as the source of existence. I think of him this way instead of as him as a personal creator, although the Hindu religion says that God's two armed personal form comes before his four-armed, or universal form. That is, it is a more natural form. Anyway, God as the "Source," I can assure is an airtight axiom, or conclusion, actually, it doesn't matter which you think of it as. Anyway, I can assure you this idea is airtight.

    Just on a side note, I was a devout atheist most of my life. I say this because I studied these question in many different perspectives, from many different angles, and in many different compositions. No I am not giving you the proof for the possibility or reality of god being the source, I am merely giving you my opinion. You might be surprised to learn a recommendation from me, the God Delusion. It might help you refine your beliefs. It really doesn't matter what you read, because I could never convince you by argument. You ought to read Pascal, Plato, Descartes, but also, anything that strikes your attention. Keep reading, not because there's something you don't know that's written, even, necessarily, but perhaps looking for new things that people have written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captainqt
    WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marten
    Prove it.
    Prove to me that gravity exists. You can't, sir. There's an endless regression of concepts, and you cannot prove them all, because you cannot prove to me that I exist or you exist, none-the-less what I am. You may think this is one of the least true things you've ever heard, but I can guarantee you at least one other person reading it thinks the opposite. Are you unaware of that opinion, or is a person who thinks it's true be unaware of the possibility of it not being true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morten View Post
    It is no more nonsensical to say the following, than it is to say what you have said above:

    The giant purple bunny's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the smaller, less purple bunnies will cry out. The universie itself glorifies the giant purple bunny by its existence. The giant purple bunny shows its power, wisdom, and love in its creation, and creation glorifies it.

    Problem is, how do you support any of these ridiculous claims? You're basically just talking from your rear-end. Please answer me this: How does the universe glorify god my its mere existence? How does god show his power, wisdom and love in his creation?
    Well, I've been writing a lot ( and I have the sneaking suspicion none of it meant anything to you ) so I will take a break and just say briefly that God is a universal idea. In that there's an infinite number of people ( not necessarily human ) and of them all, they are all still material. They are all still less than God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captainqt
    Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morten
    This is explains why you are religious. You can't accept the harsh biological realities of existence so you turn to a vague and illusory conception of "God". What about other living organisms? Flies? Birds? Wombats? Do they also go to heaven, or is there idea of eternal life not good enough for them?
    No. The concept of God as a higher reality is an advanced concept, not an inferior one. Once again, there is the concept of God as reality, the essence of God as reality, and the concept that there is no higher reality. What Captain is saying is that in the essential reality, our lives disappear into finiteness. He explained it in a couple sentences, but you ignored those to focus on the sentence where he said he believed there was more to our lives than the time we are spent respirating and beating our hearts. In fact we know this; we don't know when a person dies; but it is not when their head is cut off.

    "You can't accept the harsh biological realities of existence so you turn to a vague and illusory conception of "God"."

    This is illogical to say, Morten. The acceptance the individual Captainqt has of the harsh biological realities of life has nothing to do with his philosophical belief in the illusory existence of God.

    And, dogs go to Dog Heaven.

    Oh, okay, I guess I got through that.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I will address all of your points, straight forwardly, but you will address everyone with more respect. Who here has said to you " you are talking out of your butt "? I am speaking for more than myself when I say that you need to respect people here.
    I'll start off by ignoring the condescending tone you've used towards me in all of your post, and you in turn can "turn a cheek" to what you feel is disrespectful about my tone. I'm not a politician and am not here to be your buddy.


    I am not able to comprehend atoms, gravity, the movement of stars, calculus, many of these things, and many of them I cannot see with my eyes, either. Each of these is as vast an idea as the other. In the question of each of them there is their concept, their essence, related concepts, in fact the question always becomes very complicated. Yet all of them I accept as fact.
    Because they can be scientifically proven.

    Anyway, God as the "Source," I can assure is an airtight axiom, or conclusion, actually, it doesn't matter which you think of it as. Anyway, I can assure you this idea is airtight.
    There is nothing "air right" about God's existence.

    Prove to me that gravity exists.
    Pick up any object nearest to you and drop it on the floor. Voila.

    you cannot prove to me that I exist or you exist, none-the-less what I am.
    Cogito ergo sum. The undeniable proof that "you" exist in some form. In any case, thinking that nothing is real and none of us really exist leads nowhere.

    You make a good number of assumptions about my person. Far from being a radical atheist, I have often wanted to be believe very dearly because many thinkers or writers I admire do so too (Kierkegaard, Flannery O'Connor) but the fact remains - and this is what you cannot escape, despite all your talk of concepts and essences and essences of concepts - there is no verifiable proof of any higher being.

    You cannot equate the proof of gravity or calculus with the proof of god simply because you as an individual do not understand it. Gravity can be and has been proven scientifically. Calculus is a mathematical concept, not a physical force, and as such it does not "exist".

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