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Thread: Winston and Julia

  1. #31
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sindel View Post
    But my guess is that Orwell did not even think of reassuring the reader about this love.
    I actually think that's because Orwell didn't know much about the subject himself.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    I actually think that's because Orwell didn't know much about the subject himself.
    Word!

  3. #33
    Spiriti Votivi Mancanti The Lukewarm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    Same thing happened to Julia. She had to face with probably her greatest fear - multiple rape by Party Members.
    Since there's no real reference to Julia's greatest fear in the book and the hipotesis of the fear of being raped by members of the inner party is pure speculation, could the answer be in the scar Winston saw in her forehead, after they were relased by the miniluv?

    Maybe her greatest fear was related to somehow losing her beauty or youth, taking into consideration her narcissism, which is quite clear in several passages.

    Also, I wonder if was anyone ever not just threatened by his greatest fear in the room 101, but actually submmited to it. I guess the answer is yes, if we remember of the guy in Winston's cell (the one that impressed Winston by the thinness and to whom a piece of cheese was offered, resulting in the punishment of the offerer by the guards), it was said: "not the room 101 again! put my children and wife there, but not me again!". It suggests that this man had already went through the 101 process, and possibly even resisted to the first attempt, not betraying his most loved person, which he ends up doing, however, when threatened by a second submission.
    Last edited by The Lukewarm; 07-01-2009 at 04:23 PM.

  4. #34
    the beloved: Gladys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lukewarm View Post
    Since there's no real reference to Julia's greatest fear in the book and the hypothesis of the fear of being raped by members of the inner party is pure speculation...
    Is this so?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Is this so?
    Damn, your spell checker is a good one.

    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  6. #36
    Spiriti Votivi Mancanti The Lukewarm's Avatar
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    whoops!

  7. #37
    the beloved: Gladys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lukewarm View Post
    ...could the answer be in the scar Winston saw in her forehead, after they were released by the miniluv?

    Maybe her greatest fear was related to somehow losing her beauty or youth, taking into consideration her narcissism...
    I stumbled on this:

    She began to enlarge upon the subject. With Julia, everything came back to her own sexuality. As soon as this was touched upon in any way she was capable of great acuteness. ...The way she put it was:

    'When you make love you're using up energy; and afterwards you feel happy and don't give a damn for anything. They can't bear you to feel like that
    .

    If 'everything came back to her own sexuality', facial disfigurement would have been soul destroying for Julia - her greatest fear.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Then why wait seven years!!
    I think the same reason the feds watched the Italians in "Donny Brasco" (lol). I think to possibly gather more information on other indivduals, if any guilty of thoughtcrime. Watching someone for several years allows you to figure out, (if possible) what a person and how a person thinks. Doesn't Winston say the only thing you have to yourself are your thoughts? Realistically people have patterns in their everyday lives and can easily be figured out. What makes the person tick, what fears they have, what they enjoy, ect. ect. can surely be displayed in everyday events. I'm babling on as of now, but I think you find out much about a person when watching them close enough, especially nowadays when everyone so freely discloses information on Twitter or Facebook. Not much investigation is required for the government to know every detail. You give it up freely!

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

    Nope, I'm certain she wasn't.

    Even had she gotten pregnant, the Party would have aborted the foetus.


    .
    I feel the need to disagree. In the beginning of the book, when Winston was describing the Jr Anti-Sex league and his marriage ot Katherine, he said that pregnancies were expected of the women in the Party. So no, I do not believe they would have aborted it. Besides, I highly doubt it was Winston's child. The book was hinting that they had been there for many months, so he probably would have been able to tell, and if she went through something similar to what Winston went through, there is no way that a fetus could survive it.

    As for the rape thing, I do not believe that it was her greatest fear, but there is no saying that it did not happen. But what I think is more likely is that she was taught it, in the way Winston was retaught "2x2=5". SHe would have trained her that it was her duty to procreate, and probably would have done something like that, having her have sex with a party member every week over time until she stopped resisting or she was pregnant. It would have been the way to "break" her, as her promiscuity was her form of rebellion. So by getting her pregnant, either by intercourse or insemination, and telling her that it was her duty to the party, they would have been fixing her in the same way they fixed Winston's memory. So yes, I think she is pregnant. I also think that it would be a timestamp on her life. After the baby is born and taken away to be raised by the party, she has outlived her usefulness.
    Last edited by EmeraldFire512; 07-05-2010 at 12:40 AM. Reason: forgot a fact

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldFire512 View Post
    I feel the need to disagree. In the beginning of the book, when Winston was describing the Jr Anti-Sex league and his marriage ot Katherine, he said that pregnancies were expected of the women in the Party.
    Only in couples whose marriage had been approved by the Party.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldFire512 View Post
    So no, I do not believe they would have aborted it. Besides, I highly doubt it was Winston's child. The book was hinting that they had been there for many months, so he probably would have been able to tell, and if she went through something similar to what Winston went through, there is no way that a fetus could survive it.
    You might be surprised at how resilient foetuses are. A mother is more likely to die first from trauma than the foetus.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldFire512 View Post
    As for the rape thing, I do not believe that it was her greatest fear, but there is no saying that it did not happen. But what I think is more likely is that she was taught it, in the way Winston was retaught "2x2=5". SHe would have trained her that it was her duty to procreate, and probably would have done something like that, having her have sex with a party member every week over time until she stopped resisting or she was pregnant. It would have been the way to "break" her, as her promiscuity was her form of rebellion. So by getting her pregnant, either by intercourse or insemination, and telling her that it was her duty to the party, they would have been fixing her in the same way they fixed Winston's memory. So yes, I think she is pregnant. I also think that it would be a timestamp on her life. After the baby is born and taken away to be raised by the party, she has outlived her usefulness.
    Interesting theory, but I see nothing to indicate the kind of irrational fear required by the Thought Police in a pregnancy.

    Given Orwell's love of clarity, I just don't see a pregnancy as a possibility. If that's where he wanted the story to go, Orwell would have harangued us with the spectre - the imagery would have been too good to avoid that.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  11. #41
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    A remake of 1984 me and my friends made

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxyuN2LKD8

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Then why wait seven years!!
    As I was reading Part III this same question occurred to me. So I began to think about Winston's question. "I understand the how but not the why?" O'Brian gives his answer and in doing so reveals the party goals of creating a perfect society as they see it. He speaks of tyranny, separating the bond between parents and children, eliminating orgasm and other forms of pleasure, Double think, Newspeak, etc. He never really gives a satisfactory answer to Winston's question but that is another discussion.

    As a means to the Party goals Minilove is as much an institute of science and learning (from the inner party perspective) as it is a prison or an enforcement agency. O'Brian is a scientist who's goal is working toward the party goals. Winston is simply a case study, seven years before he was chosen to be in room 101. O'Brian may not have known that he would meet Julia and so forth. He could been chosen for his past experience as a child loosing his mother and sister. Or any number of reasons. There are any number of crimes he and Julia committed that could have gotten them arrested. O'Brian simply was waiting and watching and gathering information.
    Gender Free...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaphneFree View Post
    Winston is simply a case study, seven years before he was chosen to be in room 101 ... He could been chosen for his past experience as a child loosing his mother and sister.
    Winston chosen as a case study?

    I prefer to think that he was chosen seven years earlier following routine security assessments by the Inner Party: assessments of the sort we hear of today in the West as part of the war on terror. But I don't disagree with the scientist aspect.
    Last edited by Gladys; 11-13-2011 at 12:35 AM. Reason: spelling
    "Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Winston chosen as a case study?

    I prefer to think that he was chosen seven years earlier following routine security assessments by the Inner Party: assessments of the sought we hear of today in the West as part of the war on terror. But I don't disagree with the scientist aspect.
    That makes perfect sense. I guess I should have said that he became a case study. After the party had deemed him dangerous.
    Gender Free...

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaphneFree View Post
    I guess I should have said that he became a case study. After the party had deemed him dangerous.
    Became a case study?

    I suspect Winston and Julia are treated the same as any other dissenter. And perhaps all dissenters are of scientific interest to the Inner Party.
    "Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"

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