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Thread: Winston and Julia

  1. #16
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    why would you say that it was rape??

  2. #17
    aspiring Arthurianist Wilde woman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    She had to face with probably her greatest fear - multiple rape by Party Members.
    Is there a passage in the book where Julia actually says this is her greatest fear? I haven't read the book in a while, but I remember that Julia is quite a sexual creature. Whether or not she likes to have sex simply to rebel against the Party or if she's naturally horny is, I think, left ambiguous.

    I'm not saying that rape by Party members wouldn't be something she would fear, but is it ever supported in the book? From what I remember, Julia admitted that she's had sex with many Party members...

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni29 View Post
    why would you say that it was rape??
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilde woman View Post
    Is there a passage in the book where Julia actually says this is her greatest fear? I haven't read the book in a while, but I remember that Julia is quite a sexual creature. Whether or not she likes to have sex simply to rebel against the Party or if she's naturally horny is, I think, left ambiguous.

    I'm not saying that rape by Party members wouldn't be something she would fear, but is it ever supported in the book? From what I remember, Julia admitted that she's had sex with many Party members...
    No, there are no passages which say that's the case.

    The reason I think it's likely is the only clue Orwell gives us is Julia's disgust at Winston's question about whether she has had sex with Inner Party members.

    Pure speculation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ¡Finallyworked. View Post
    Is julia pregnant at the end of the book. She shows signs of it, she got fatter, feet swelled. Just would like to know.
    I honestly think so i mean it wouldn't be a surprise they did engage in a lot of sexual activities.. but it would be a very devastating event.

    I also don't understand why these two can't be together, i mean there are other people within the book that's married.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CeruleanKat View Post
    I personally don't think that Julia and Winston are in love. They make love as a form of rebellion. I also think that the reason they do that is because they don't know what being in love is. They may think they're in love, but wouldn't know if they were because they've never experienced it or saw it for themselves. They live in a society where being "in love" doesn't exist. So, I think that they are not in love, although I wasn't as confident in my answer when Winston called out to Julia and said that he had loved her more than when they were together near the end of the book.
    I strongly agree with you.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belizabeth View Post
    I honestly think so i mean it wouldn't be a surprise they did engage in a lot of sexual activities.. but it would be a very devastating event.
    Nope, I'm certain she wasn't.

    Even had she gotten pregnant, the Party would have aborted the foetus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belizabeth View Post
    I also don't understand why these two can't be together, i mean there are other people within the book that's married.
    Because they loved each other. It was plain that as long as your desire was to breed party members, marriage was acceptable. Love isn't, unless it's love for BB or the Party. Love for individuals is bordering on Thoughtcrime, passion for anything outside of the Party or the Party's wishes, is forbidden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belizabeth View Post
    I strongly agree with you.
    Sorry, but I have to disagree again. I missed the original post.

    It doesn't matter whether their love was born of desperation, lust or fantasy, they were in love, and the proof is given in Room 101. It was putting Julia in his place that broke Winston. Had he not genuinely loved her, it wouldn't have mattered at all.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    It doesn't matter whether their love was born of desperation, lust or fantasy, they were in love, and the proof is given in Room 101. It was putting Julia in his place that broke Winston. Had he not genuinely loved her, it wouldn't have mattered at all.
    You've just cleared something up for me. I'd often wondered whether Winston's love was real and had never thought of it like that. Thanks
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guernica View Post
    Of course it was dangerous to get involved with eachother... and it could go either way.
    It could go either way? Winston's every move was monitored even before he met Julia - surely they had no hope from the beginning.

    O'Brien:___This drama that I have played out with you during seven years will be played out over and over again generation after generation, always in subtler forms.

    Does this mean the Thought Police waited almost seven years before acting against Winston and Julia? Why such a delay in acting? Were the Thought Police simply waiting to establish the weaknesses of both?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Does this mean the Thought Police waited almost seven years before acting against Winston and Julia? Why such a delay in acting? Were the Thought Police simply waiting to establish the weaknesses of both?
    Yes, they keep constant monitoring and control, nothing and nobody can escape from them. It was just a matter of time when they will show weakness and get caught. It was 7 years in Winston and Julia's case, maybe longer or shorter in other cases.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    It was just a matter of time when they will show weakness and get caught.
    Is Winston apprehended soon after he discloses fear of rats or Julia, fear of rape?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Is Winston apprehended soon after he discloses fear of rats or Julia, fear of rape?
    Moment of arresting doesn't necessary had to be connected with disclosing of what someones greatest fear is. Once they enter Room 101, they fear will quickly be discovered, it's really not a problem.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    Moment of arresting doesn't necessary had to be connected with disclosing of what someone's greatest fear is.
    Then why wait seven years!!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Then why wait seven years!!
    They have to make a mistake first, then they will enter Room 101.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    They have to make a mistake first...
    Am I missing something? Here's my understanding, having just read 1984.

    Seven years before their arrest, O'Brien and his Thought Police determined that Winston, and soon after Julia, were guilty of 'thought crime'. Presumably, they searched Winston's flat and found the book, as well as receiving damning reports from Mr Charrington and the telescreen behind the picture.

    Winston, and Julia had made their capital mistake way back then!

  15. #30
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    I can understand why some people question Winston's love (or not) for Julia. As said by The Atheist, the answer is probably yes, he loves her sincerely.

    But my guess is that Orwell did not even think of reassuring the reader about this love. The main point seems to be that when you get fond of another person, you might become less fond of Big Brother. (We all have felt, or at least witnessed, that infatuation can isolate couples from the world around them) Hopes, desires and visions of a better future reduce their dependance towards BB, and if something is strongly stated in this book, it is that BB is a jealous god, who "lays traps for troubadors before they reach..." ...the unexisting opposition.

    For me, Orwell puts Winston in situations where he starts to think that he can choose, only to establish in the end that under BB's rule, you have only one choice. So why not love it?

    Is it not a ruling party's dream? Becoming so central in everybody's life that practically every measure of energy goes to the profit of the party, instead of being wasted in romance, poetry, aspirations and all those stupid things, unfit for a mere cattle?

    Channel a human's libido, add fear, some mysticism, and you get the perfect slave.

    Having addressed this matter moves me so that after posting, I am going to do the first (sweet) thing that crosses my mind, something unexpected and totally created by my personal fantasy. Just to celebrate that I'm no Winston, thanks life!
    Last edited by Sindel; 05-25-2009 at 12:11 PM. Reason: syntax

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