Of male and female characters

**baddad** · 03-29-2005, 01:10 AM

In my first manuscript I created a protagonist named Taryn. She was one of three main characters in the novel, both of the others being men. The men were terribly easy to create (being one helps) but the female was sheer torture. I've been married a few times, am basically addicted to women so you think I would know a woman's mind and/or heart quite intimately. But I was never completely satisfied with the results I obtained with Taryn. Sooooo.......I am now in my third year of 'Women's Studies' as one of my minors at University. I figure it will really help current and future female characters, and maybe I'll learn something.............but I'm a man, so maybe I won't learn anything..... ( :

**lhaeber** · 03-29-2005, 08:00 PM

You are my hero. I would love to take the courses (womens studies) but was afraid of being perceived as this uber feminist (i live with men, my family is mostly men, my co-workers are men, my dogs are men, well, male). I wonder, are there men's studies as well?

**baddad** · 03-30-2005, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by lhaeber

You are my hero. I would love to take the courses (womens studies) but was afraid of being perceived as this uber feminist (i live with men, my family is mostly men, my co-workers are men, my dogs are men, well, male). I wonder, are there men's studies as well?

Men's Studies? Well sure, no problem, just take a look at the patriarchial world in which we live. Take a look at how the elite, the governments, the social institutuions, education systems, medical research, scientific exploration, religious doctorines, politics, sports etc., are run. Make absolutely no mistake!! This is truly a man's world. No University faculty could cover this subject as well as a glance out the window can accomplish.

Funny thing though. I thought my courses in Women's Studies would be a piece of cake, an easy bunch of credits to burn off while learning something pertinent to my writing. Guess what? These 3 years of WS's have been the most intense, most challenging, and most frustrating courses I've studied. Feminism has so many schisms within itself that a P.h.d. is needed in order to grasp its many intricacies................... not to mention the BRUTAL reading regimen with its convuluted rational and complicated implications......

One of my professors graduated (Phd) Cambridge, and taught at Harvard University for 4 years. She is a genius in this area, as are most of my professors. As a man studying women, I find myself trying my best not to look like a complete idiot..............not always an easy task, even on a good day......

**Zooey** · 03-30-2005, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by mono

Firstly, being a male, to me both Virginia Woolf and Emily Bronte tend to describe well the makings of an increasingly masculine mind. Wuthering Heights best distinguished the various types of male minds, not to deviate the male from the female mind too much.

I can't comment regarding Brontë, but do you think that Woolf's ability to capture the mind of the male may have something to do with her bisexuality, or at the very least, her belief that at the most basic levels there is very little difference between males and females, and treating her characters as such?

This is actually a question I've mulled over in the past, and when it comes down to it, I don't know if it's possible for one sex to accurately portray the other. Don't get me wrong, there are masterful imitations coming from both sides, but is it truly possible for a male to capture the mind of a female, and vice versa? I'm not sure.

That said, I tend to lean towards Woolf's idea of sex and gender, so perhaps it is possible for one sex to portray the other because there's very little difference when it comes to the essence of what it is to be human.

Some good examples of the top of my head:
ORLANDO by Virginia Woolf
THE TALENTED MR. RIPLEY by Patricia Highsmith
The "Franny" section of FRANNY AND ZOOEY by J.D. Salinger
THE MANDARINS by Simone de Beauvoir (though her depiction of the female characters are clearly superior)

I guess not that many, really, when it comes down to it.

I have been told Henry James did a good job of capturing the minds of his female protagonists, but I cannot verify this myself. I really should change that in the near future.

**mono** · 03-30-2005, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Zooey

do you think that Woolf's ability to capture the mind of the male may have something to do with her bisexuality, or at the very least, her belief that at the most basic levels there is very little difference between males and females, and treating her characters as such?

This fact would not surprise me in the least, and seems much like what I questioned myself. Not only in Orlando, as you mentioned, but in her essay A Room Of One's Own, I feel that Woolf expresses quite accurately the views, differences and similarities, of males and females.
As for her regard to bisexuality, this may seem a generally vague response, but I can imagine there must subsist some ability for men or women who find either gender attractive (or polyamorous) to have increasingly better realizations of both genders, in ideas, desires, rhetoric, and behavior.

Originally Posted by Zooey

I have been told Henry James did a good job of capturing the minds of his female protagonists, but I cannot verify this myself. I really should change that in the near future.

I have never noticed this fact of Henry James' work, but I can certainly see its truth, especially in The Turn of the Screw and The Aspern Papers, but this may only apply to men and women of his era - the late 1800s and early 1900s.

**subterranean** · 03-31-2005, 07:23 PM

yea, I don't see the "big" interest in a so called "men's studies?"..Since well, that's how the world is run from long time ago till now. Though I understand that sometimes women use their "female characteristics" to advantage themselves, yet on the other hand they also asked for equality. Don't get me wrong I my self is a female and admit that sometimes I did that.

This one episode of The Aprentice showed how the gals participants use their sexuality to sell more, and indeed they sold a whole lot more than the guys.

Originally Posted by baddad

Men's Studies? Well sure, no problem, just take a look at the patriarchial world in which we live. Take a look at how the elite, the governments, the social institutuions, education systems, medical research, scientific exploration, religious doctorines, politics, sports etc., are run. Make absolutely no mistake!! This is truly a man's world. No University faculty could cover this subject as well as a glance out the window can accomplish.

Funny thing though. I thought my courses in Women's Studies would be a piece of cake, an easy bunch of credits to burn off while learning something pertinent to my writing. Guess what? These 3 years of WS's have been the most intense, most challenging, and most frustrating courses I've studied. Feminism has so many schisms within itself that a P.h.d. is needed in order to grasp its many intricacies................... not to mention the BRUTAL reading regimen with its convuluted rational and complicated implications......

One of my professors graduated (Phd) Cambridge, and taught at Harvard University for 4 years. She is a genius in this area, as are most of my professors. As a man studying women, I find myself trying my best not to look like a complete idiot..............not always an easy task, even on a good day......

**SleepyWitch** · 04-01-2005, 04:59 AM

good point, Subterannean but: just because men have been running the world doesn't mean we know all that much about them. plus if you wanna explore concepts of femininity you also need to look at masculinity, coz they go hand in hand. as in: the roles men ascribe to women influence their own behaviour and the standards they set for themselves/eachother. e.g. when men claim that women are weak and helpless thus follows that it's the d u t y of the man to protect women, which puts a lot of pressure on him. so if we examined how the concepts of femininity and masculinity are responsible for men's weird behaviour

(could give you lots of examples from my own xp w/ guyfriends/bfs, dad, boss etc), feminism could actualle help men as much as women. i s'pose it's part of gender studies and stuff.
do you think those girls on The Apprentice would have behaved like that if they had known it wouldn't be a successful tactic? i.e. if men didn't e x p e ct women to act like this or respond to it, they wouldn't need to. i mean, lots of men don't take a women who dresses e.g. in jeans and a dinner jacket seriously coz they think she must be some disgruntled old lesbian. but if women hop around half naked, men will find them interesting.
yeah, that's my two penny worth of gender studies...

**IWilKikU** · 04-01-2005, 06:01 AM

I think really that men are alot less complex than women. I mean seriously, who really understands women? Even among women? How is it that you are always right (and if your not you can at least make men think you are), always win, always superior, and yet squable amongst yourselves over petty stupid stuff? If women mobilized and unionized and organized without getting jelous of each other's hand-bags, you could rule the world easily. And think of how great it would be! No more wars, and everything would match.

**Scheherazade** · 04-01-2005, 06:04 AM

IWillKikU, as a married man, you should know better than posting such messages

**IWilKikU** · 04-01-2005, 06:06 AM

Yes, but my wife never comes to this forum.

**Scheherazade** · 04-01-2005, 06:11 AM

*gives Mrs IWIllKikU a phone call and invites her to join the Forum ASAP*

**subterranean** · 04-01-2005, 06:14 AM

I think Kik just expressing what he feels as a married man

...And Kik, IMHO, I think women would rule the world sometime soon...We're bigger in number than you guys and lots of us are smarter and stronger mentally.

**IWilKikU** · 04-01-2005, 06:19 AM

I completely agree. My wife dwarfs me in common sense and logic, but she gets into bitter rivalries with her close friends about the cheezyist moron things, like she was going to buy this pair of shoes and her friend bought them first. That caused no end of *****ing and moaning in my house and evidently her friend's too. Silly women.

**Koa** · 04-01-2005, 09:28 AM

We already rule the world...men spend their time wondering what the hell we want, so we rule their minds at least...

Jokes aside, I had never thought that subjects like 'women studies' could exist...

As for the topic, the only one coming to my mind now is Tolstoy. I was absolutely amazed about how he described Anna Karenina's feelings towards the end of the book...it was impressingly feminine. Curiously, I can't really stand any of the characters from War&Peace instead, especially the female ones.