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Thread: to begin with ...the end

  1. #16
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    he died

    Sorry guys. Unfortunatelly I don't have the English version of the book with me. But, really, to all of you who think that WS does not die, or think that this is a minor detail, I suggest you go back and read the book again and again. Not all of the book: focus only on Part III.
    In particular, there's a very interesting passage towards the end of chapter 2, in which O'Brien actually explains WHY the Party will ultimately kill those who accused of thoughtcrime. I would love to quote that paragraph but can't (maybe somebody else will). In short: The thoughtcriminal is a mistake the Party cannot tolerate.
    I have red the book both in English (twice), Italian (4 or 5 times), Romanian (once) and French (once).
    Believe me. the only conclusion you can reach is that WS is shot dead.
    But one cannot expect George Orwell to give a "detailed report" about WS's execution. That would have been -how can I put it?- ...bad.
    There a sort of elegance in letting the reader get to the conclusion. Remember: Power is not a mean, power it's the goal. Killing Winston only after he has become perfect (he LOVES the Big Brother) is the ultimate demonstration of the Party's power.

  2. #17
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subterranean
    Do you mean that Winston still owned his own reality/mind, even until his death? COz it'd meant that in the end Big B lost the battle.
    I think Taliesin means that it doesn't matter if the party killed Winston at the end or not. His spirit was broken, his awareness shattered. He lost, Big Brother won, it didn't matter if he died or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by nns
    Sorry guys. Unfortunatelly I don't have the English version of the book with me. But, really, to all of you who think that WS does not die, or think that this is a minor detail, I suggest you go back and read the book again and again. Not all of the book: focus only on Part III.
    In particular, there's a very interesting passage towards the end of chapter 2, in which O'Brien actually explains WHY the Party will ultimately kill those who accused of thoughtcrime. I would love to quote that paragraph but can't (maybe somebody else will). In short: The thoughtcriminal is a mistake the Party cannot tolerate.
    Thanks nns. I knew that there was something else other than the end that made me think that he was killed. Maybe this is the paragraph you referred to:

    "O'Brien smiled slightly. 'You are a flaw in the pattern, Winston. You are a stain that must be wiped out. Did I not tell you just now that we are different from the persecutors of the past? We are not content with negative obedience, nor even with the most abject submission. When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will. We do not destroy the heretic because he resists us: so long as he resists us we never destroy him. We convert him, we capture his inner mind, we reshape him. We burn all evil and all illusion out of him; we bring him over to our side, not in appearance, but genuinely, heart and soul. We make him one of ourselves before we kill him. It is intolerable to us that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be. Even in the instant of death we cannot permit any deviation. In the old days the heretic walked to the stake still a heretic, proclaiming his heresy, exulting in it. Even the victim of the Russian purges could carry rebellion locked up in his skull as he walked down the passage waiting for the bullet. But we make the brain perfect before we blow it out. The command of the old despotisms was "Thou shalt not". The command of the totalitarians was "Thou shalt". Our command is "Thou art". No one whom we bring to this place ever stands out against us. Everyone is washed clean. Even those three miserable traitors in whose innocence you once believed -- Jones, Aaronson, and Rutherford -- in the end we broke them down. I took part in their interrogation myself. I saw them gradually worn down, whimpering, grovelling, weeping -- and in the end it was not with pain or fear, only with penitence. By the time we had finished with them they were only the shells of men. There was nothing left in them except sorrow for what they had done, and love of Big Brother. It was touching to see how they loved him. They begged to be shot quickly, so that they could die while their minds were still clean."
    Ningķn hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  3. #18
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    crisaor

    you are my man!

  4. #19
    precious... subterranean's Avatar
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    Now..reading NNS' last post make me smile indeed ( i dont even know why)..

    Cris, you missed my point there. I know that taliesin didnt focused to whether W died or not. i was asking him whether he meant that W did has his own reality still, even till the end of his life. If this is the case, then W did won afterall


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #20
    Serious business Taliesin's Avatar
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    No, I think that he didn't have it.
    All the reality he had was given to him by BB.


    But, nns, I see a point again. Darn, people would think that I am a schizophrenic when I would change my opinion again, so I cannot change it.
    Sorry.
    If you believe even a half of this post, you are severely mistaken.

  6. #21
    precious... subterranean's Avatar
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    it's not schizophrenic ...unstable perhaps


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

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