Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21

Thread: to begin with ...the end

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    22

    to begin with ...the end

    I quote from the summary of the book "1984" you can find on this web-site:

    "Winston and Julia are sent to the Ministry of Love which is a sort of rehabilitation center for criminals accused of thoughtcrime. There, Winston was separated from Julia, and tortured until his beliefs coincided with those of the Party. Winston denounces everything he believed in, even his love for Julia, and was released back into the public where he wastes his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin."

    Every time I get to read a summary of the book somewhere, the end we are presented with is the one reported above, according to which Winston is released from the Ministry of Love and allowed to lead a meaningless life, wasting his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin.

    That's an aberration! Whoever has written such nonsense shows that he/she has not understood much about this beautiful novel, that he/she has must have missed the point.

    Winston Smith dies. Shot in his head by the Party. There can be no doubt about this. The narrator cannot tell us (the readers) about this, simply because the narrator's "job" ends the very moment the bullet enters WS skull. No time left to formulate fresh thoughts.
    "He loved the Big Brother". Thatís precisely the moment the Party had been waiting for to carry out their death sentence. I mean, it is written all over the place: the Party would not tolerate thoughtcrime. Whoever is accused of such a criime shall die. Winston Smith is not the exception. There can be no exception.
    The Party is merely waiting for the criminal (especially the thoughtcriminal) to become "perfect" before executing him. Just like O'Brien says: "don't worry: eventually, we will kill you". Winston loves the Big Brother? His time has come to die.

    To me, to think that WS is left to waste his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin is simply unconceivable: there would be no consistency; half of the beauty of the book would be gone.

    nns

  2. #2
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Stuck inside a cloud
    Posts
    1,405
    I'm not sure about this. The bullet entering his brain can be understood as he's imagining it, there's no real evidence of the contrary, although like you, I would imagine that he's shot when he's finally broken by the Party.
    The movie chooses the no gunshot ending, though.
    Last edited by crisaor; 10-16-2004 at 04:14 PM.
    Ningķn hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  3. #3
    Serious business Taliesin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    The West Pole
    Posts
    2,228
    Blog Entries
    3
    The movie chooses the no gunshot ending, though.
    Do my eyes deceive me? Did crisaor really use "It was so in the movie" as an argument?
    This is the beginning of the end, I say.

    But, yes, I think too, that Winston was shot. Just that it was not said doesn't mean that it wasn't done.
    If you believe even a half of this post, you are severely mistaken.

  4. #4
    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The little Italy of Dagobah
    Posts
    4,394
    Blog Entries
    1
    I don't believe that he was physically shot, only mentally, he lost all that was unique in him, and effectivly "died", he was still alive just living completely for the party, not a shade of humanity left

    ---------------
    Stanislaw Lem
    1921 - 2006, Rest In Peace.
    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

  5. #5
    fated loafer
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    MIA
    Posts
    1,250
    Stanislaw's captured it, he lost initiative, he lost drive, gumption, purpose and life, but he did not die.

  6. #6
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Stuck inside a cloud
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Taliesin
    Do my eyes deceive me? Did crisaor really use "It was so in the movie" as an argument?
    This is the beginning of the end, I say.
    Your eyes are fine . It's your mind that played you. I wasn't using that argument, I was merely mentioning that fact, in case someone didn't see the movie. The book is almost always better (a theme for another time). I did say that I went with the Winston dead ending.
    Ningķn hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  7. #7
    King of Plastic Spoons imthefoolonthehill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Lost in my own incoherence
    Posts
    2,378
    NNS is correct. He died. read it again...
    Told by a fool, signifying nothing.

  8. #8
    precious... subterranean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    KÝbenhavn for the present
    Posts
    6,516
    Blog Entries
    34
    Well I'm reading the translation version . So I dont know whether the translator took it literarly that Winston is physically. But until now I think Winston did died physically after he was dead mentally.


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #9
    fated loafer
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    MIA
    Posts
    1,250
    But Big Brother wouldn't be victorious if Winston dies, the whole point is to conquer the person, if he dies he has found an escape.

  10. #10
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Stuck inside a cloud
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by simon
    But Big Brother wouldn't be victorious if Winston dies, the whole point is to conquer the person, if he dies he has found an escape.
    No, the whole point is to break the person. Once that is done, that person has already been conquered, it doesn't matter if he dies afterwards. When Winston died (assuming he died, which I do), he didn't feel liberated, he loved Big Brother, he didn't care about anything else. The real escape was his relationship with Julia, their mutual love, his awareness of the situation.
    Ningķn hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  11. #11
    Serious business Taliesin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    The West Pole
    Posts
    2,228
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by crisaor
    No, the whole point is to break the person. Once that is done, that person has already been conquered, it doesn't matter if he dies afterwards. When Winston died (assuming he died, which I do), he didn't feel liberated, he loved Big Brother, he didn't care about anything else. The real escape was his relationship with Julia, their mutual love, his awareness of the situation.
    Actually, I re-read the book and have another opinion. I am afraid that I have to more-less agree with you.

    The fact whether Winston was shot or not does absolutely not matter. It is merely a detail. To Winston, only the mind is real ("if I believe so, and O'Brien believes so, then he could fly like a soap bubble") There is no physical reality to Winston (there is only his mind) any more and we cannot say whether he was shot or not. It does not matter any more.
    If you believe even a half of this post, you are severely mistaken.

  12. #12
    precious... subterranean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    KÝbenhavn for the present
    Posts
    6,516
    Blog Entries
    34
    I thought the love to the big brother is meant as an irony..i mean he didnt really love the Big B..


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #13
    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The little Italy of Dagobah
    Posts
    4,394
    Blog Entries
    1
    Not physically, but he loved him emotionally. like a father.

    ---------------
    Stanislaw Lem
    1921 - 2006, Rest In Peace.
    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

  14. #14
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Stuck inside a cloud
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Taliesin
    Actually, I re-read the book and have another opinion. I am afraid that I have to more-less agree with you.
    So sorry about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taliesin
    The fact whether Winston was shot or not does absolutely not matter. It is merely a detail. To Winston, only the mind is real ("if I believe so, and O'Brien believes so, then he could fly like a soap bubble") There is no physical reality to Winston (there is only his mind) any more and we cannot say whether he was shot or not. It does not matter any more.
    Good point, and it makes for a much more interesting interpretation of the book's ending.
    Ningķn hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  15. #15
    precious... subterranean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    KÝbenhavn for the present
    Posts
    6,516
    Blog Entries
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by Taliesin
    The fact whether Winston was shot or not does absolutely not matter. It is merely a detail. To Winston, only the mind is real ("if I believe so, and O'Brien believes so, then he could fly like a soap bubble") There is no physical reality to Winston (there is only his mind) any more and we cannot say whether he was shot or not. It does not matter any more.
    Do you mean that Winston still owned his own reality/mind, even until his death? COz it'd meant that in the end Big B lost the battle.


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Random Thought of the Day
    By ajoe in forum General Chat
    Replies: 6201
    Last Post: 01-16-2019, 06:16 PM
  2. The Novel on Text of 1984
    By Libba in forum 1984
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-24-2005, 06:07 PM
  3. My thoughts
    By nikon Sevast in forum 1984
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-24-2005, 06:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •