1984 in the eyes of a chinese reader

[kuro_muckraker]

Well, i have to say 1984 is a bit more tedious than orwell's animal farm. this anti-utopian novel, in my opinion, is in no way to stand for socialism; on the contrary, it reflects disillusionment of the ex-zealot of communism.

and the most horrible notion i bore in mind when reading this novel is that, as a reader from china, i found most of its descriptions in the book were not imaginary to me at all. they are not dreamy utopia, bad or not. rather, they are my nation's authentic past and to some extent, ongoing daymare.

[Jester]

I read 1984 a couple months ago and I enjoyed it more then Brave New World of a similar genre but I had didn't know that China was that dominant and overpowering.

[Stanislaw]

I think orwell like many people of his day was strongly anti communism, now communism in theory is an exceptional idea, just that it doesn't seem to work in practice, former ussr as an example. I think orwells book though anticomunist, could also warn of corruption and what happens when an ideal is corrupted.

[crisaor]

Orwell was far from being an anti-communist. He was, in fact, trotskist. 1984 was just a way to show his deception and anger towards the Stalin-ruled URSS. Nevertheless, the story is not about communism, is about totalitarism.
And "communism doesn't work in practice"? A country with no industry, no qualifyed workers, without proper education, with a terrible wealth distribution and a completely useless high class in the zares became a world potency in 30 years. So, in other words, it took a hundred times less time than most of the developed countries (i.e. England, Germany, US, etc.).

[subterranean]

Well, i have to say 1984 is a bit more tedious than orwell's animal farm. this anti-utopian novel, in my opinion, is in no way to stand for socialism; on the contrary, it reflects disillusionment of the ex-zealot of communism.

and the most horrible notion i bore in mind when reading this novel is that, as a reader from china, i found most of its descriptions in the book were not imaginary to me at all. they are not dreamy utopia, bad or not. rather, they are my nation's authentic past and to some extent, ongoing daymare.

I suppose you consider the CPC under Mao's authority, as the Big B in your country. But,referring to what you wrote about Orwell's writing is not a dreamy utopia and could be said as your nation's authentic past, I have different opinion. Ithink it doesn't really describe China (at all i perhaps). I mean with the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, and Mao's idea of strong socialist state and traditional chinese ideas (which at some time led to the establishment of the new bourgeois), and some other policies. But this is only IMHO

[WingedSpirit]

China is no longer a real communism country, the goverment is still a bit totalitarism though.
Now many older people in Russia miss the past.
What did Russian people get after the collapse of USSR? Freedom? Yeah, they get freedom to be prostitutes or join maffia.
I'm not a communist or socialist, I'm a big fan of democracy and freedom, but only when they are real. Only if justice is not really fullfilled through all the world, people will still keep dreaming.
I'm still kind of dreamer, I love this song as follow wrote by John Lenon:

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

[Stanislaw]

John Lennon eh?

I agree that Russia was better under soviet dictatorship, as a whole, but the people were oppressed. now Russia is in a worse state, or atleast appears to be, other countries are just now starting to be able to see the corruption that existed in Russia, that is why it seems to be more corrupt than ever befor. And I think that is what Orwell was talking about, corruption of an ideal.

[crisaor]

I agree that Russia was better under soviet dictatorship, as a whole, but the people were oppressed. now Russia is in a worse state, or atleast appears to be, other countries are just now starting to be able to see the corruption that existed in Russia, that is why it seems to be more corrupt than ever befor. And I think that is what Orwell was talking about, corruption of an ideal.

There's corruption everywhere. Corruption is sometimes linked to the perversion of an ideal, but not always, and not necessarily. IMO, it's a mistake to identify a socio-economic system for what is worth because of one (or several) bad government. Not only communism suffers from this. For example, if I were to judge democracy by the performance of the Latin governments in the last decades, I would have to conclude that it doesn't work. Of course, this would be wrong, so that's why simplified analysis shouldn't be made at all.

[WingedSpirit]

Lennon? I just wannn say I'm kind of dreamer and like Lennon's dream, no any hints to this topic.
And I'm not defending the system of USSR, I hate totalitarism and all dictators. I'm just wondering maybe Russia could get a better way to realize democracy. I've a question here, does socio-economic system inevitably result in ditatorship? Is it possible to achieve democracy and freedom based on socio-economic system.
You have to admit communism is not totally wrong as supposed to be, since at least communism once successfully eliminated prostitution, drugs, mafia and unemployment, which have never been fulfilled by capitalism, and I guess ever.

[crisaor]

I've a question here, does socio-economic system inevitably result in ditatorship? Is it possible to achieve democracy and freedom based on socio-economic system.

I'm not following you here. Democracy and freedom can be achieved, under any socio economic system, provided the necessary conditions are met (which most of the times, is unlikely, under any SES).

You have to admit communism is not totally wrong as supposed to be, since at least communism once successfully eliminated prostitution, drugs, mafia and unemployment, which have never been fulfilled by capitalism, and I guess ever.

That's not entirely accurate. There were maffias in the USSR. High ranking officials of the government had complete control of the distribution of goods, and some of them behaved more or less in a gangster manner. Prostitution has existed since the dawn of time. I have serious doubts that anything or anyone can eliminate that (however, giving it a more proper treatment is possible). The elimination of unemployment (never completely of course, but keeping it at very low percentages) is perhaps one of communism's greatest merits, but the same thing can be achieved in a not so extreme context. Take the scandinavian countries, for instance, they have a socialism based economy, with a high level of participation of the estate in the economy, and the level of democracy and freedoms they have is unequalled in any part of the world.

[WingedSpirit]

hi, crisaor, Mao eliminated prostitution in China, which was revived in 80's.

[subterranean]

The elimination of unemployment (never completely of course, but keeping it at very low percentages) is perhaps one of communism's greatest merits, but the same thing can be achieved in a not so extreme context. Take the scandinavian countries, for instance, they have a socialism based economy, with a high level of participation of the estate in the economy, and the level of democracy and freedoms they have is unequalled in any part of the world.

Cris, you were mentioning about the merrits of communism, yet you gave an example of socialist Scandinavian countries. As we all know, there's a difference between the two concepts. I dont know, perhaps there's a "revolutionary means" involved in those countries' economic system?

[Jester]

I believe that most political systems, like a true democracy, true communism or socialism or republic would all by utopian if it weren't for human nature getting involved... liek greed and power struggles and he's got a bigger toy then mine... after a couple of generations it might change... our wants and greedy nature could possible change but I don't think you can get there.

[subterranean]

well Jester, just say it would never happened..

our wants and greedy nature could possible change but I don't think you can get there.

[crisaor]

hi, crisaor, Mao eliminated prostitution in China, which was revived in 80's.

You mean literally, 0 prostitution??
What I mean is that it will always exist no matter what, but there can be a difference in quantity, so to speak.

Cris, you were mentioning about the merrits of communism, yet you gave an example of socialist Scandinavian countries. As we all know, there's a difference between the two concepts. I dont know, perhaps there's a "revolutionary means" involved in those countries' economic system?

No, I said that some of the merits of communism can be achieved under other circumstances, and then I pointed out that example. I'm very aware of the difference. There's nothing revolutionary about scandinavian countries. They're just educated people with a great degree of honesty and capacity. They know that capitalism, when left free to do its bidding will always turn to market imperfections (monopolies, bad wealth distribution, unemployment, etc.), so they have the estate to regulate the economy. The difference between the ideal socialist estate and that of 1984, is that the first has an active role on the economy, but not on the lives of its citizens. The totalitarian estate proposed by Orwell intervenes in every affair, in the worst way possible. Thing is, nowadays, some of the stuff in 1984 happens in several countries, despite the fact that they're democracies. Sometimes, it isn't necessary to start a revolution to establish a dictatorship, as Orwell said, since that thing can be accoplished today by misinformation, wars, economic reforms, etc.