Mors est quies viatoris, finis est omnis laboris
Mors est quies viatoris, finis est omnis laboris
If you kill a book, you kill an idea
We are not what we know but what we are willing to learn
Keep in mind this is a translation. The Italian, I am sure, has a completely different feel, and I bet the Latin doesn't feel as out of place, and probably can be deciphered from just knowing the vernacular.
Oh, and Baskerville is also a reference to Sherlock Holmes, if no one mentioned it yet.
Yes, there is a bit over here related to that.
Full many a gem of purest ray serene
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flower is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.
From Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard ~ Thomas Gray
I have good news - I am listening to the audio tapes and I like the book so far very much. Funny, I keep thinking 'is William a sort of Sherlock Holmes?' I guess I was not that far off in my thinking. I like all the little graphic details. I have only listened to one and a half sides of the first tape. It is captivating and keeping my interesting. The narration is great, so I am happy to be listening to it - it is so entertaining.
"It's so mysterious, the land of tears."
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
The very first chapter had me worried this was a schlocky Sherlock Holmes story, when he was talking about the horse.
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda
I'm a few chapters into it. I love all the discriptives.
"Come away O human child!To the waters of the wild, With a faery hand in hand, For the worlds more full of weeping than you can understand."
W.B.Yeats
"If it looks like a Dwarf and smells like a Dwarf, then it's probably a Dwarf (or a latrine wearing dungarees)"
Artemins Fowl and the Lost Colony by Eoin Colfer
my poems-please comment Forum Rules
Hira, this article is so interesting. Thanks for looking it up for us. It might benefit a few of us who drew comparisons to Sherlock Holmes, to read this, if you haven't already.Originally Posted by Hira
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Ok, so here are some of my initial thoughts on the novel.
When I read the novel years ago, I read The Name of the Rose as a novel that stands in contradistinction to Dante’s The Divine Comedy. The novel is set in the middle ages, but it is clearly written in the 20th century, so there is a ironic stance between the values of the middle ages and those of the author. Not just values but the whole conception of how the world works, the world view or what the Germans call, Weltanschauung. In Paradiso, Dante (the author) has Beatrice explain to Dante (the character) how the world works:
Dante’s world view, and that of the middle ages, is that all things work in an order and reflect God. I say that The Name of the Rose stands in contradistinction to Dante because the world in the novel, despite the character’s perceptions, doesn’t work where all things reflect order or lead to God. Character’s, other than William of Baskerville, see a rational organization to events. Notice how Adso at the end of Prime on the first day views the Aedificium:“All things created have an order
in themselves, and this begets the form
that lets the universe resemble God.
“Here the higher creatures see the imprint
of the eternal Worth, the end
for which the pattern was itself set forth.
(l.103-108, Hollander and Hollander trans.)
Consider this when you see what happens to the Aedificium at the end of the novel.For architecture, among all the arts, is the one that most boldly tries to reproduce the one that most boldly tries to reproduce in its rhythm the order of the universe, which the ancients called “kosmos,” that is to say ornate, since it is like a great animal on whom there shine the perfection and the proportion of all its members.
William, in contrast, sees the world through empiricism, not through telos, the philosophy that all things act toward a predestined end (teleology). William is associated with Sherlock Holmes (Baskerville being a Holmes story). And yes Papaya, on its surface this is a "shlocky" (ha, I love that word) Sherlock rip-off. William’s philosophic mentor is Roger Bacon, perhaps arguably a proto-empiricist. Empiricism is the Enlightenment philosophy that one has to observe nature to learn it. One can’t expect to know God’s end and back out a rationale for nature. And no one represents that empirical mind better than the character of Sherlock Holmes, who sees events and is able to deduce facts from observations. William works contrary to the way anone in the Middle Ages would have worked. It is an ironic undercuting of the values of the Middle Ages.
That is how I understood the novel when I read it many years ago. But I think I have to qualify this reading. Not only is Eco writing in contradistinction to the world view of the Middle Ages, but he’s also writing in contradistinction to the modern world view. I was tipped off on this when I recently read that Eco does not see himself as a modernist, but as a post-modernist. And then I started to see a pattern. Yes, William deduces correctly certain things, but at times he stumbles into a correct answer that has no logical basis on empirical evidence. Notice how when he and Adso approach the Abbey and then come across the monks looking for the stray horse. Yes William deduces the size of the horse and where he has strayed to by observation, but then he also tells the men the name of the horse, “Brunellus” and that it’s a dark horse. Well, wait a second. That’s not observation, but luck. He happens to be right but there is a disconnect with any rational thought process. And so I think this follows throughout the novel. Eco is undercutting both the world view of the Middle Ages and that of the Enlightenment simultaneously, and presenting a universe that follows the non-empiricism of quantum mechanics and relativity.
Remember this, Eco is a expert in semiotics, the philosophy of how one interprets signs, the cognitive process of interpreting the world. The Middle Ages essentially looked at signs as ends of God’s purpose. The Enlightenment looked at signs as things to logically figure out as ends in themselves. Post-Modern looks at the world and can’t connect information to a logical ends.
That's how I see the philosophic underpinnings of the novel. Of course there's much more.
Last edited by Virgil; 02-12-2008 at 10:05 PM.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Virgil, I think you have to take into account the difference in philosophical views of a man like Dante and a man like Ockham. Philosophical views during the Middle-Ages were far from being homogeneous. At University we had a lecture by one of the greatest specialist of Ockham, who made a small parenthesis about The Name of the Rose. Eco's speciality also embraces Ockham very directly, so I would think twice before coming to such conclusions.
Et l'unique cordeau des trompettes marines
Apollinaire, Le chantre
Yes, I'm not sure what to make of Ockham. Can you sumarize his ideas, especially as to how they relate to this novel? I've looked them up but i can't seem to fit it in.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
Wish I had my copy up at campus so I could participate more fully, but I don't.
Anyway, as a bit of a medieval history geek and someone who was raised in Christian doctrine, I found this book to be fascinating. Eco speaks truth on many levels, all while telling a story that entertains the nerdiest levels of my personality. I particularly remember the section where "Ado" has relationship with a woman whom he never sees again. Great book, great choice to read. However, I'm not sure what I like better. This, or Baudolino. Everyone who liked this should read Baudolino, by the way.
If you don't mind I'll need to take some time to prepare something like this that is clear, and I have a work to finish revising for tomorrow. I haven't read The Name of the Rose yet, so I won't be able to link Ockham directly to the book, but I can assure you from the mouth of specialists, that it is rather accurate in term of philosophical views. I'll try to prepare something short about Ockham and also about Dante. But simplifying medieval philosophers out of their philosophical context (this means without referring directly to other philosophers, explaining a lot of more technical terms, etc.) need a mastery which I don't have in the subject (there is a big difference between understanding and teaching, and I don't want to write too quickly and write wrong things or much too unclear things) but I'll gladly try do it. I believe maybe even a side discussion in the Philosophical writings section would be interesting, if some people are willing to discuss, understand and contribute, perhaps even some kind of philosopher's book club-like thing?
Quickly, Dante and Ockham were rather close, in their general views, but there is some important distinctions to make (I believe for example that you concluded perhaps too generally and not accurately about Dante). But this "empiricist" epiphet that you gave to Ockham is accurate but it is also accurate to Dante, but again this term has a broader meaning in the context of medieval philosophy.
Last edited by Etienne; 02-13-2008 at 12:48 AM.
Et l'unique cordeau des trompettes marines
Apollinaire, Le chantre
Quote by Etienne:
I think this would be a good idea because the majority of us who are reading the book might not know anything about Ockham or Dante or any of the really heavy philosophy so a sideline discussion on this would be better. I already feel a bit lost in the discussion.I believe maybe even a side discussion in the Philosophical writings section would be interesting, if some people are willing to discuss, understand and contribute, perhaps even some kind of philosopher's book club-like thing?
Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
yeah the first thing that went through my head was "hound of the baskerville"
"Come away O human child!To the waters of the wild, With a faery hand in hand, For the worlds more full of weeping than you can understand."
W.B.Yeats
"If it looks like a Dwarf and smells like a Dwarf, then it's probably a Dwarf (or a latrine wearing dungarees)"
Artemins Fowl and the Lost Colony by Eoin Colfer
my poems-please comment Forum Rules
If you haven't read the novel, I can't see how you can relate the philosophies of Dante and William of Occam here as they relate to the novel. What are you going to do, give us the complete understanding of Dante and Occam? There are librarie shelves filled with whole books on the subect.
LET THERE BE LIGHT
"Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena
My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/
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