The Aeneid Discussion Group

[Virgil]

Virgil, I am a foreign invader! I was just curious, since you said you were occuppied in here tonight and could not post much on the short story thread; so stopped in to see how many posts you have all filled up, so far on this discussion of "The Aeneid"...felt to me like this discussion has been going on forever, so I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project? I didn't realised the work was that long, but I am sure it is very involved, with much symbolism, etc. This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

There are twelve books and we're on Book V. But after Book Vi it goes faster.

[Janine]

There are twelve books and we're on Book V. But after Book Vi it goes faster.

12 books? Yikes! I think you guys will be here for awhile yet. Have fun!

[NickAdams]

Virgil, I am a foreign invader! I was just curious, since you said you were occuppied in here tonight and could not post much on the short story thread; so stopped in to see how many posts you have all filled up, so far on this discussion of "The Aeneid"...felt to me like this discussion has been going on forever, so I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project? I didn't realised the work was that long, but I am sure it is very involved, with much symbolism, etc. This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

I'm quite sure that I'm adding little, if anything, to the discussion. My first read is always a superficial one.

[Quark]

Well I finally caught up. Funny I don't notce a shift n Aeneas in Book V. He doesn't even have that large a role here.

The shift, if there is one, I think is between unyielding Aeneas in Book IV and conciliatory, sensitive Aeneas in Book V. Vergil says of the hero in the previous Book:

"No tears, no pleading, move him ; no man can yield
When a god stops his ears. As northern winds
Sweep over Alpine mountains, in their fury
Fighting each other to uproot an oak-tree
Whose ancient strength endures against their roaring
And he trunk shudders and the leaves come down
Strewing the ground, but the old tree clings to the mountain,
Its roots as deep toward hell as its crest toward heaven,
And still holds on--even so, Aeneas, shaken
By storm-blasts of appeal, by voices calling
From every side, is tossed and torn, and steady." (iv, 438-48)

I found this slightly different from the Aeneas in Book V who is overwhelmed by his problems. Vergil again:
"And now Aeneas, stunned by the bitter evil,
Was troubled at heart, uncertain, anxious, grieving:
What could be done? forget the call of the fates
And settle here in Sicily, or keep on
To the coast of Italy?" (v, 700-03)
And:
"The old man's words still troubled him; the mind
Was torn this way and that" (v, 719-20)

Aeneas is much more uncertain suddenly. Also, he concedes much more. In Book IV he doesn't give in to any of Dido's wishes even as she demands less and less. Here, in Book V, he's generously handing out awards and letting the unruly members of his crew stay in Sicily. Maybe these changes in Aeneas are caused by the Gods telling him to do different things, but for whatever reason I think he does appear differently in Book V.

I'm not sure if Nick is refering to Hemingway because of these games, but I do think Hemingway would have been proud of it.

Oh, that makes sense. I didn't get it at first.

I can't help feel that the key to Book V is the notion of death.

There are a few deaths in Book V, but they're kind of the book ends and not really at the center of the action. Anchises dies, but they throw him in a tomb and then get on with it. Polinurus drowns, but that's more of a lead-in for Book VI. There's death at the beginning as they watch Dido's funeral pyre and bury Anchises, and there's death at the end with Polinurus. I suppose you could say that frames the action in Book V, but the action itself is more about life. It's about nationalities with Acestes and Aeneas, and it's about the wrangling of the Gods with Venus and Juno. There's quite a lot of life at the center of the Book.

So why does Virgil intertwine the festive funeral games with all these allusions and narratives of death? I think it’s to show again the sacrifice of Aeneas and the Trojans to build Rome.

Their deaths do show the pain and suffering that went into building Rome. Where do you find allusions to death in the funeral games, though?

I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project?

Has it been five months already? I guess it has been pretty slow work. Maybe it's because we don't have that glorious leader you always say these threads need.

This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

Wait, I don't follow.

Quark, those book plates are really neat. Thank for posting them; I will have to check other pages to see if you posted more pictures. You always come up with interesting things to look at.

Those took me forever to find, actually. I had seen them before, but I couldn't find them on the web anywhere. The ones I eventually found were a little small unfortunately.

I'm quite sure that I'm adding little, if anything, to the discussion. My first read is always a superficial one.

Well you don't need to post a nine-hundred word, well-researched essay to add to the conversation. Sometimes just asking a good question or saying the first thing that comes into your head really helps. You've added a number of things, Nick. Don't say you haven't.

[Virgil]

The shift, if there is one, I think is between unyielding Aeneas in Book IV and conciliatory, sensitive Aeneas in Book V. Vergil says of the hero in the previous Book:

"No tears, no pleading, move him ; no man can yield
When a god stops his ears. As northern winds
Sweep over Alpine mountains, in their fury
Fighting each other to uproot an oak-tree
Whose ancient strength endures against their roaring
And he trunk shudders and the leaves come down
Strewing the ground, but the old tree clings to the mountain,
Its roots as deep toward hell as its crest toward heaven,
And still holds on--even so, Aeneas, shaken
By storm-blasts of appeal, by voices calling
From every side, is tossed and torn, and steady." (iv, 438-48)

I found this slightly different from the Aeneas in Book V who is overwhelmed by his problems. Vergil again:
"And now Aeneas, stunned by the bitter evil,
Was troubled at heart, uncertain, anxious, grieving:
What could be done? forget the call of the fates
And settle here in Sicily, or keep on
To the coast of Italy?" (v, 700-03)
And:
"The old man's words still troubled him; the mind
Was torn this way and that" (v, 719-20)

That just strikes me as a different reaction to different circumstances. The claim that was made that this is the place where Aeneas transitioned from a Trojan to a Roman. I see no evidence for that. Would a Roman be characterized as more sensitive or conciliatory? Frankly if such a transition occurs I would think it would be after coming out of the underworld in Book VI. But we'll get to that.

Aeneas is much more uncertain suddenly. Also, he concedes much more. In Book IV he doesn't give in to any of Dido's wishes even as she demands less and less. Here, in Book V, he's generously handing out awards and letting the unruly members of his crew stay in Sicily. Maybe these changes in Aeneas are caused by the Gods telling him to do different things, but for whatever reason I think he does appear differently in Book V.

Again I think it's just different circumstances.

There are a few deaths in Book V, but they're kind of the book ends and not really at the center of the action. Anchises dies, but they throw him in a tomb and then get on with it. Polinurus drowns, but that's more of a lead-in for Book VI. There's death at the beginning as they watch Dido's funeral pyre and bury Anchises, and there's death at the end with Polinurus. I suppose you could say that frames the action in Book V, but the action itself is more about life. It's about nationalities with Acestes and Aeneas, and it's about the wrangling of the Gods with Venus and Juno. There's quite a lot of life at the center of the Book.

This is true, but the contrast is striking. Virgil is layering the thorns of life with the roses. I still think the undercurrent of death gives this chapter a three dimensionality. If it was just funeral games, I think it would not be all that interesting. The death allusions suggest a complex view of life.

Their deaths do show the pain and suffering that went into building Rome. Where do you find allusions to death in the funeral games, though?

Well, not so much within the games, but that the games are a celebration of someone who has died.

Has it been five months already? I guess it has been pretty slow work. Maybe it's because we don't have that glorious leader you always say these threads need.

My fault. I have failed in my role of leadership here.

[Quark]

That just strikes me as a different reaction to different circumstances. The claim that was made that this is the place where Aeneas transitioned from a Trojan to a Roman. I see no evidence for that. Would a Roman be characterized as more sensitive or conciliatory? Frankly if such a transition occurs I would think it would be after coming out of the underworld in Book VI. But we'll get to that.

Mortal brought up the idea of Aeneas moving from Trojan to Roman, but I think he was just making a general statement about Aeneas over the entire poem and not just Book V.

Again I think it's just different circumstances.

It's angry women in Book V demanding things from Aeneas and an angry woman in Book IV demanding things from Aeneas. I suppose the Gods are telling him to act differently, but that doesn't really say anything about Aeneas's character.

This is true, but the contrast is striking. Virgil is layering the thorns of life with the roses. I still think the undercurrent of death gives this chapter a three dimensionality. If it was just funeral games, I think it would not be all that interesting. The death allusions suggest a complex view of life.

Are there allusions to death outside the actual deaths and funerals at the ends of the section?

My fault. I have failed in my role of leadership here.

Sorry, I didn't mean to take a jab at you. I was just having fun with Janine's idea of thread leadership.

[bluevictim]

Has it been five months already? I guess it has been pretty slow work. Maybe it's because we don't have that glorious leader you always say these threads need.

Well, I'm glad you all have been going slow. I haven't had much time lately to participate here, and I probably won't for a while, so I just hope there will still be some discussion going on when I get a chance to jump back in!

[Quark]

Well, I'm glad you all have been going slow. I haven't had much time lately to participate here, and I probably won't for a while, so I just hope there will still be some discussion going on when I get a chance to jump back in!

You're in luck. We're moving through the Aeneid at a pace of about one Book per month. At that rate we'll finish in '09. Hopefully, though, things will start picking up here.

[Petrarch's Love]

Glad to see you guys faithfully keeping this discussion going. I've been overwhelmingly busy of late but found a scrap of time this evening to think a little about Aeneid five.

Their deaths do show the pain and suffering that went into building Rome. Where do you find allusions to death in the funeral games, though?

Well they are funeral games...sorry, couldn't help myself. Seriously, though, I think you both are equally right about the mixture of life and death in this book. The games are indeed a break, and a celebration of the health and vitality of the participants. Just as the funeral games for Patroclos in the Iliad act as welcome respite from the relentless account of battle, so these games function as a break from the struggle of the search for Rome. So I agree with Quark when he says, "there's quite a lot of life at the center of the Book. "

At the same time I also agree with Virg. about the importance of death in this book. Not only, as everyone's already said, does death frame the book (with Dido's funeral pyre and the burial of Anchises at the start and the amazing description of the death of Polinurus at the end), but both the games and the incident with the women are fundamentally reactions to death. Funeral games, both here and in the Iliad, do indeed function as a celebration of life, but it is a celebration of life consciously in reaction to and in tension with death. Part of what makes the games in both the Iliad and the Aeneid profoundly important is that they function as a simultaneous reminder of death and an insistence on the continuation of life coming out of that death. After the traumatic accounts of massive death and the destruction of Troy and the dramatic death of Dido in the early books, these middle books, five and six, are about coming to terms with the losses of the past and moving forward. Book five is concerned with different modes of public mourning. The death of Aeneas' father is recognized and mourned in the funeral games, which at the same time serve to connect the participants to present pleasures. The lamenting and then frantic women who threaten to burn the ships are a different kind of public mourning. They are set up in direct opposition to the controlled and decorous reaction to the remembrance of death in the funeral games. In book five Aeneas is figuring out how to react to the losses of the past and move forward into the future within the public sphere. He needs to recognize who in the group are strong, lively warriors ready to react to their losses by engaging heartily in the games--as they will need to later in battle--as opposed to those who, like the women, can't take it any more and are too scarred by past losses and afraid of future losses to take part in the sacrifices ahead in the founding of Rome.

Just as book five focuses on the recognition of the losses of the past and the transition to the life of the present and the enterprises of the future in the public sphere, so book six focuses on the recognition of past loss as a means of moving forward on a more personal/familial level...but since not everyone has read this before I won't spoil anything by moving into the fantastic book six just yet.

[Virgil]

Good post Petrarch. And I'm loving Book VI. I think it's the best one.

[Petrarch's Love]

And I'm loving Book VI. I think it's the best one.

Me too.

[Quark]

Glad to see you guys faithfully keeping this discussion going. I've been overwhelmingly busy of late but found a scrap of time this evening to think a little about Aeneid five.

Thanks for posting Petrarch. It's been difficult for any of us to find time for the thread. There's interest in the topic, but all of us have been too overtaxed to participate much. Virgil blogs and writes an obscene number of posts in other threads, Nick is reading the Aeneid for the first time, and I've been busy trying to get the little circle of Chekhov readers here to understand ambiguity and irony. Unfortunately, none of us has time to lead the discussion or even post regularly. I do hope we can get through Book VI (everyone's favorite), though.

Well they are funeral games...sorry, couldn't help myself.

Yes, but I think we're letting our imagination run away with us when we say that the games must be "about" death because they were prompted by someone passing away. I think you have to trust your own impression of the action rather than merely interpolate from the book ends and the title what the games represent.

At the same time I also agree with Virg. about the importance of death in this book. Not only, as everyone's already said, does death frame the book (with Dido's funeral pyre and the burial of Anchises at the start and the amazing description of the death of Polinurus at the end)

Okay, this is a giant paragraph, so I'm going to break it into parts and then respond.

but both the games and the incident with the women are fundamentally reactions to death. Funeral games, both here and in the Iliad, do indeed function as a celebration of life, but it is a celebration of life consciously in reaction to and in tension with death. Part of what makes the games in both the Iliad and the Aeneid profoundly important is that they function as a simultaneous reminder of death and an insistence on the continuation of life coming out of that death.

This is the part that throws me. I don't think the women are responding to death. It seems more like they are tired of sailing, rather than afraid they might die. Iris's argument depends on the Trojans being discontented about their nomadic life, not being terrified of death. She even claims to prefer death above this voyage. Her angry speech goes like this:

"Alas!" said one, "what oceans yet remain
For us to sail! what labors to sustain!"
All take the word, and, with a gen'ral groan,
Implore the gods for peace, and places of their own.
The goddess, great in mischief, views their pains,
And in a woman's form her heav'nly limbs restrains.
In face and shape old Beroe she became,
Doryclus' wife, a venerable dame,
Once blest with riches, and a mother's name.
Thus chang'd, amidst the crying crowd she ran,
Mix'd with the matrons, and these words began:
"O wretched we, whom not the Grecian pow'r,
Nor flames, destroy'd, in Troy's unhappy hour!
O wretched we, reserv'd by cruel fate,
Beyond the ruins of the sinking state!
Now sev'n revolving years are wholly run,
Since this improsp'rous voyage we begun;
Since, toss'd from shores to shores, from lands to lands,
Inhospitable rocks and barren sands,
Wand'ring in exile thro' the stormy sea,
We search in vain for flying Italy.
Now cast by fortune on this kindred land,
What should our rest and rising walls withstand,
Or hinder here to fix our banish'd band?
O country lost, and gods redeem'd in vain,
If still in endless exile we remain!
Shall we no more the Trojan walls renew,
Or streams of some dissembled Simois view!
Haste, join with me, th' unhappy fleet consume!
Cassandra bids; and I declare her doom.
In sleep I saw her; she supplied my hands
(For this I more than dreamt) with flaming brands:
'With these,' said she, 'these wand'ring ships destroy:
These are your fatal seats, and this your Troy.'
Time calls you now; the precious hour employ:
Slack not the good presage, while Heav'n inspires
Our minds to dare, and gives the ready fires.
See! Neptune's altars minister their brands:
The god is pleas'd; the god supplies our hands."

Iris is playing off the Trojan yearning for a homeland and comfort. There isn't any tension with death here. It's a desire for life--a good life. To make the point even more clear, a woman emerges from the crowd to tell everyone that the real Beroe has cloistered herself in her hut to grieve. The actual grieving over death is taking place off-stage! Far from focusing on death, Vergil is removing it to an unseen hut. This is important for the structure of the Book and the Aeneid in general. Book V is the reprieve from suffering--and, yes, even death. Trojans die in every location except Sicily. They're welcomed by a friendly king who doesn't arouse passion in Aeneas. The games are a jovial wrangling for place. Euryalus and Sinus show friendship. There's an eroticized description of boys. Romans and Sicilians have a good natured contest. The gods continue their struggle. All of these are celebrations of life; and, despite the reason for the games, I don't see how the action shows tension with death. It is framed by death; however, and that is important to the structure. I'll explain in the next paragraph.

After the traumatic accounts of massive death and the destruction of Troy and the dramatic death of Dido in the early books, these middle books, five and six, are about coming to terms with the losses of the past and moving forward. Book five is concerned with different modes of public mourning. The death of Aeneas' father is recognized and mourned in the funeral games, which at the same time serve to connect the participants to present pleasures.

This is a good observation. Books V and VI are linked by the idea of loss and suffering. The other part I disagree with you is in your characterization of Book V. As I've argued before Book V isn't part of the mourning. It's the escape from it. That's why the action of Book V is contrasted by death and a horrible sea voyage at the ends. Book VI is linked with it because this is the part where Aeneas has to move on. Sicily wasn't the final rest from pain and suffering that was promised to him. Aeneas needs to find the courage to continue which toward the end of Book VI he lacks. He admits that he'd rather forget and live in the paradise of Elysium than help the Trojans reach Italy. It takes Anchises to rally his spirits and convince him that it's worth the struggle. This is the progress of Book V and VI. It isn't about the Trojans properly mourning. It's about Aeneas deciding that the founding of the Roman empire is just that important. Book V acts as the alternative choice for Aeneas; and, for the reader, it works as a brief reprieve from the intensity of the other Books.

I hope I didn't go on to long, but this is key for understanding Book VI.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Quark--I think we're actually agreeing about this more than it might appear.

Book V is the reprieve from suffering--and, yes, even death. Trojans die in every location except Sicily. They're welcomed by a friendly king who doesn't arouse passion in Aeneas. The games are a jovial wrangling for place. Euryalus and Sinus show friendship. There's an eroticized description of boys. Romans and Sicilians have a good natured contest. The gods continue their struggle. All of these are celebrations of life; and, despite the reason for the games, I don't see how the action shows tension with death.

Absolutely, I agree with you that this book is not about death in the sense of directly engaging with death in the action of its scenes or in the sense of being full of mourning. I think you're completely right to bring out how much celebration of life is going on in this book, and certainly you're spot on in saying that the pith of the book is about sorting out the importance of founding Rome. The specifics of the scenes of the games are indeed entirely light hearted, and taken out of context could easily be read as an untroubled account of sport in a peaceful kingdom. What I'm trying to point out is that within the structure and the context of the work as a whole, the inclusion of this book functions as a quiet period when everyone finally has the time to take a breath and begin a transition from the remembrance of loss and hardship (and perhaps "loss and hardship" are better terms than the more narrowing term "death" to describe what I feel is being reacted to in these scenes). Perhaps our fundamental difference lies here:

As I've argued before Book V isn't part of the mourning. It's the escape from it. That's why the action of Book V is contrasted by death and a horrible sea voyage at the ends.

You're right that book five is not mourning in the sense of initial lamentations and beating of the breasts, and that there is a sense of moving on in this book. I think where we differ is that I see this as not an escape from mourning, but a later part of the mourning process. We often think of mourning in terms of being the initial dramatic reaction to fresh grief, but a great loss is actually mourned for a long time, and mourned in a different way a year or more later than it is at the time. Up until book five everyone's been so busy actually experiencing loss and fighting for survival that they haven't had time to fully recognize their grief. Though I am frequently annoyed by the overuse of the term "closure" in the modern psychology of grieving, I think that perhaps closure comes closest to what I am getting at in my remarks. In book five the people have the time to recognize and honor the loss of Aeneas' father in the form of the games, which are in turn a way of bringing to a close the very grief they recognize. There's a similar dynamic, though expressed in a very different way, in the outburst of the women. They finally have a moment of peace and it becomes the occasion for an outburst of the rage and anguish that has built up beginning with the losses at Troy and continuing with all the dramatic events and losses throughout their journey since. They aren't dealing with all that's happened as well as the participants in the games. They're sick and tired of constant loss, and the emotions finally seeth to the forefront before they can move out of this anger into a settlement for the future.

Note that I'm not necessarily arguing that this has to be a primary reading of the book. Certainly one could easily just read this as an interlude of games and the women getting fed up with their nomadic life. On a more subtle secondary level, however I think that this interlude does very powerfully emerge from the context of the loss that comes before it and acts not so much as an escape as a direct transition from remembering what has been suffered to embracing what is and what is to come.

[Quark]

Yesterday the website must have been down because I couldn't get the page to load. Did anyone else have that problem? Looking over some of the threads I see some people posted last night, so it must have been working for them. Maybe it was just selectively down for a few people.

Hi Quark--I think we're actually agreeing about this more than it might appear.

Yes, I think I misunderstood your last post. Annoyingly, though, I still don't agree enough to write a short post.

Absolutely, I agree with you that this book is not about death in the sense of directly engaging with death in the action of its scenes or in the sense of being full of mourning. I think you're completely right to bring out how much celebration of life is going on in this book, and certainly you're spot on in saying that the pith of the book is about sorting out the importance of founding Rome.

You're right that book five is not mourning in the sense of initial lamentations and beating of the breasts, and that there is a sense of moving on in this book.

Oh, good, I'm glad we agree on the action and the mood of Book V. At first I didn't understand what you meant by "tension." I thought you were suggesting that Vergil was casting a gloom over the games--which you have to admit would be odd interpretation. This is the most upbeat Book in the entire epic. The word Vergil uses almost obsessively throughout this section is laetus, or "joyous." I was starting to wonder which Aeneid you and Virgil were reading. Now I understand better what you meant by "tension" and mourning.

I think where we differ is that I see this as not an escape from mourning, but a later part of the mourning process.

No, I agree with this too. I even liked your distinction between Book V and Books VI as different forms of grieving. Aeneas does connect the ritualized joy of the games to the death of his father, and the deaths at the ends of the story do have an effect on our understanding of the action. I just think that these tenuous connections to death are lost in the drama of celebration and revolt. We have to keep remembering that, yes, the games are in memory of Anchises, and, yes, the women are in this position because of death. Even the impassive reader with a penchant for cause and effect has to be swept along by the action in Book V. Vergil, himself, seems to as well. He avoids bringing up death in situations where the connection would be quite easy to make. Iris's speech is one example, but there are many more. The connection is there, so I agree that the Book is partly concerned with death. But, we should realize that it isn't primarily a contemplation of death. That would get in the way with the progression that begins in Book V and ends in Book VI.

Note that I'm not necessarily arguing that this has to be a primary reading of the book.

I guess I agreed more than I thought. Maybe I could have written a short post.

Anyway, we're close to Book VI now. I want to post something about the Gods in this part before we move on, but besides that I don't have much to add. I don't know if Petrarch wants to comment on the other argument Virgil and I were having about Aeneas. I could wait for that. Hopefully I'm not going too slow for everyone, though. I've been shuffling my feet while I wait for people to join the conversation, but I don't want to bore those of us already here.

[Petrarch's Love]

I'm glad we've agreed to agree, Quark. Book V: Happy times delicately laced with a latent subtext of death.

Yesterday the website must have been down because I couldn't get the page to load. Did anyone else have that problem? Looking over some of the threads I see some people posted last night, so it must have been working for them. Maybe it was just selectively down for a few people.

The site was down for me too. Must have been some sort of technical snafu.

Anyway, we're close to Book VI now. I want to post something about the Gods in this part before we move on, but besides that I don't have much to add. I don't know if Petrarch wants to comment on the other argument Virgil and I were having about Aeneas. I could wait for that. Hopefully I'm not going too slow for everyone, though. I've been shuffling my feet while I wait for people to join the conversation, but I don't want to bore those of us already here.

Given the stack of student papers I'll be getting within the next hour or so combined with the amount of work I still need to get done on my proposal over the next couple of weeks, I'll probably not be participating for at least the next few days, so certainly don't hold things up on my account. I'll be interested to pop in and see how the discussion on book VI is shaping up, though, and it seems unlikely that I could let that book pass without some sort of comment.