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Thread: Big Brother And The Party

  1. #46
    the beloved: Gladys's Avatar
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    The roots of Ingsoc

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    That's where I see it differently, because I don't see it as a form of socialism just because it uses the name "socialism"... since the object of the Party has always been simply power for power's sake, I can't call it socialism.
    Accepting that Ingsoc did not evolve from socialism, Oceania's totalitarian regime almost certainly evolved from English democracy with its rigid class structure. Set as it is in London, 1984 likely deals with totalitarian tendencies in the West, and in particular the threat of invasive technologies, secrecy, repression and propaganda (now euphemistically tagged 'spin'). Geographically, Oceania excludes all the historical strongholds of totalitarianism.

    Besides, the book is hardly a critique of communism. The heyday of communist sympathies in the West ended with World War II, except for a remnant of party die-hards. The threat of a world dominated by communist ideology was fading fast by the late 1940's, and Stalin was a wretched advertisement for its creed.

    Living in the UK, Orwell (like Paul Robeson in the USA) must have been painfully conscious of growing anti-communist hysteria, lies and repression in the West. After the publication of 1984, with anti-communism at fever pitch, he would have been guarded when speaking publicly about politically sensitive themes implicit in the book, such as the invasive, repressive and anti-democratic measures by taken by an Oceania government based in London. With or without Orwell's explicit endorsement, the book speaks for itself: even democracies are corruptible!
    Last edited by Gladys; 05-30-2009 at 05:44 PM. Reason: typo

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post


    You strike me as a bit of a Syme.



    I'm looking forward to meeting you soon.
    No. I'm not Syme. Syme was consciously orthodox which conflicted with, isn't it what Freud called, his super-ego? He couldn't suppress his unconscious conflicts with IngSoc. That's why showing any kind of neurosis, nervous tick etc was dangerous. I'm conscious of my un-orthodoxy

    I would say I'm one of the underground Brotherhood but I think they had that vision of perfecting man which I don't share.

    I might be a top-hatted capitalist but they were certainly wiped out in the '40s.

    No. The reason the Party tolerates me is my phenomenal stamina with the girls in pornsec.

    -----

    I don't know what you "pretty strongly disagree with." I think that's just duckspeak.

    Socialism is in the spectrum of man-made visions about perfecting man. It requires control of men by other men. Sometimes it is to the benign side of communism or fascism with a small hill, rather than a mountain of corpses.

    Orwell as a good person buys into the socialist vision but recognizes that it is capricious. He thinks erroneously that mankind has or very soon will solve all problems with allocation and creation of wealth.

    But because government is the power of some men over others he knows that the power itself can be the vision.

    He knows that this impulse, power for power's sake, exists in us and only wonders if technology enables its capacity to overwhelm all other visions. That is the theme of 1984.
    Last edited by Leonard_K; 05-30-2009 at 12:55 PM.

  3. #48
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Accepting that Ingsoc did not evolve from socialism, Oceania's totalitarian regime almost certainly evolved from English democracy with its rigid class structure.

    ...

    even democracies are corruptible!
    I agree on both of those - Orwell had long had declared war on the class system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard_K View Post
    I don't know what you "pretty strongly disagree with." I think that's just duckspeak.
    Euphemism, for "I think you're 100% wrong."



    Any political system can be corrupted because power is involved. We agree that that's what the book is about - I just don't go along with your suggestion that Orwell was using socialism as a basis for anything other than the system to pervert for 1984.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  4. #49
    the beloved: Gladys's Avatar
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    Are 'the thought police' and Charrington members of the Inner Party?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladys View Post
    Are 'the thought police' and Charrington members of the Inner Party?
    Yes. Purity is essential at that level.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  6. #51
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    I can't be Winston - I am smarter then him. Besides, I know how you think! When you invent Room 201 let me try it.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  7. #52
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
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    I can't be Winston - I am smarter then him. Besides, I know how you think! When you invent Room 201 let me try it.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  8. #53
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    I can't be Winston - I am smarter then him. Besides, I know how you think! When you invent Room 201 let me try it.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  9. #54
    As I read the last few pages of the book, I found myself disagreeing with some of O'Brien's points. He says that his main goal is to erase all feelings except for hatred. He also says that in order for the principles of Ingsoc to truly rule the world, all people in the world must become mindless.

    But how can this be so?

    In order for everyone to be mindless, he too must be mindless. How would the party be efficiently run? Also, as I was reading through Winston's interrogation, I began to wonder who O'Brien trusts. He can't possibly be the only one to know the things that he does. Does anyone give HIM orders? And even if anyone does share the same amount of power that O'Brien does, he can't be okay with it. He strives for complete power.
    "Everybody wants to change the world, everybody wants to change the world, but no one, no one wants to die!"

  10. #55
    the beloved: Gladys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLonelyQueen View Post
    He also says that in order for the principles of Ingsoc to truly rule the world, all people in the world must become mindless.
    All the world except, of course, the Inner Party elite of which O'Brien is a member.
    "Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"

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