View Poll Results: "Master and Margarita": Final Verdict

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  • * Waste of time. Wouldn't recommend it.

    0 0%
  • ** Didn't like it much.

    0 0%
  • *** Average.

    0 0%
  • **** It is a good book.

    1 9.09%
  • ***** Liked it very much. Would strongly recommend it.

    10 90.91%
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Thread: December / Bulgakov Reading: Master and Margarita

  1. #1
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    December / Bulgakov Reading: Master and Margarita



    In December, we will be reading Master and Margarita by Bulgakov:
    Surely no stranger work exists in the annals of protest literature than The Master and Margarita. Written during the Soviet crackdown of the 1930s, when Mikhail Bulgakov's works were effectively banned, it wraps its anti-Stalinist message in a complex allegory of good and evil. Or would that be the other way around? The book's chief character is Satan, who appears in the guise of a foreigner and self-proclaimed black magician named Woland. Accompanied by a talking black tomcat and a "translator" wearing a jockey's cap and cracked pince-nez, Woland wreaks havoc throughout literary Moscow. First he predicts that the head of noted editor Berlioz will be cut off; when it is, he appropriates Berlioz's apartment. (A puzzled relative receives the following telegram: "Have just been run over by streetcar at Patriarch's Ponds funeral Friday three afternoon come Berlioz.") Woland and his minions transport one bureaucrat to Yalta, make another one disappear entirely except for his suit, and frighten several others so badly that they end up in a psychiatric hospital. In fact, it seems half of Moscow shows up in the bin, demanding to be placed in a locked cell for protection.
    http://www.amazon.com/Master-Margari...6698255&sr=8-1



    Book Club Regulations
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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  2. #2
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
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    Finally! Won't go too far with story because I don't want to spoil someones joy of reading so my question is: if story about Ha-Nocri or Jeshua is obviously showing Jesus, why is he 27 instead 33 years old?
    Last edited by bazarov; 12-04-2007 at 12:12 PM.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  3. #3
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    I'm not sure there is a particular reason for 27, but I'll answer the question with a question. Is there anything in the book that is represented correctly? With the possible exception of street and place names, everything else seems to be satire, or humor, written so broadly that inversion of what is seen on the page seems closer to reality. In some instances one can recognize the satire from one's own knowledge of conditions then; in other cases one can easily surmise the background situation then for the satirical comments being read now. I thought the book was great fun to read, especially in view of the author's continually sly point of view. Hence, perhaps, the 27 instead of 33 because he expects us to know the correct age without telling us.

  4. #4
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    Finally! Won't go too far with story because I don't want to spoil someones joy of reading so my question is: if story about Ha-Nocri or Jeshua is obviously showing Jesus, why is he 27 instead 33 years old?
    I was wondering about the same thing...perhaps the author wants to tell us that everything concerning Jesus, even his age, was distorted by the evangelists -the one who was following Jesus around and was continually distorting what he said or did, don't remember his name .

    I have read more than 200 pages by now, but my first question concerns the first chapter. Since i have never read Kant, that's no secret , what are his 4 proofs of the non-existence of God?

    Hehehe the book has some gore in it and some supposedly scarry parts and is full of black humour...it would make a really nice movie..
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  5. #5
    Registered User Etienne's Avatar
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    "don't remember his name "

    It's not the wrong name, Jesus is simply a latinized name of the hebrew Yeshua or Jeshua (but Joshua would be a more accurate translation, it's not how some chose to translate the name however). Ha-Nozri means "from Nazareth".

    "Since i have never read Kant, that's no secret , what are his 4 proofs of the non-existence of God?"

    On the contrary, he tries to prove it's existence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...der_.28Kant.29

    I'm not sure about there being four however...
    Last edited by Etienne; 12-05-2007 at 10:41 AM.

  6. #6
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    Manolia,
    Just to begin:

    http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

    and I seem to remember the claim that the proofs are all fallacious in one way or another.
    Last edited by Walter; 12-05-2007 at 10:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Registered User Etienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Manolia,and I seem to remember the claim that the proofs are all fallacious in one way or another.
    "God is the perfect being. As He is most perfect, He must have all perfections. If God lacked existence He would not be perfect, as He is perfect he must exist."

    Well it doesn't take much observation to realize that this is base circular logic.

    "Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God."

    This is based on premises that are not a necessity, but simply a supposition (that might have looked like a necessity to some under the influence of preconceived ideas), and the conclusion that "The first cause is God" is not a logically necessary conclusion, at least, if God is understood as the abrahamic one.

    But these are also very, very simplified, the real arguments are more complex (not necessary less fallacious though) there has been many "proofs" of God, most famous are by Anselm of Canterbury (Saint Anselm) and Descartes, however both are extremely dubious and logically fallacious. All these so-called proofs have also been criticized by other theist philosophers or theologians.
    Last edited by Etienne; 12-05-2007 at 10:57 AM.

  8. #8
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etienne View Post
    It's not the wrong name, Jesus is simply a latinized name of the hebrew Yeshua or Jeshua (but Joshua would be a more accurate translation, it's not how some chose to translate the name however). Ha-Nozri means "from Nazareth".
    Yep, i know that, but thanx anyway
    I meant the evangelist's name (from the second chapter of the book where satan relates the story of Jesus and he comically says about his being followed around by..?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Etienne View Post
    On the contrary, he tries to prove it's existence.
    He does? Oh i see now The author does what Walter said above

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Manolia,
    Just to begin:

    http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

    and I seem to remember the claim that the proofs are all fallacious in one way or another.
    Thanx
    EDIT
    Indeed they are three...but i am almost sure that the book says four proofs (either i have a bad translation or i don't remember correctly).
    Walter from all the philosophers sited on this page i have only read Marx .
    Last edited by manolia; 12-05-2007 at 11:27 AM.
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  9. #9
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolia View Post
    Thanx
    EDIT
    Indeed they are three...but i am almost sure that the book says four proofs (either i have a bad translation or i don't remember correctly).
    Walter from all the philosophers sited on this page i have only read Marx .
    I haven't read Kant but...
    On page 15 of my golden hard covered ltd edition copy Woland says that there are 5 Kant's proofs that God doesn't exist and Berlioz agrees with him. Later, Kant destroyed those evidences and made his own 6th proof. Woland, just before Berlioz was decapitazied tells them that 7th proof will appear in front of them in next minutes.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  10. #10
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    I haven't read Kant but...
    On page 15 of my golden hard covered ltd edition copy
    Hehe show off

    Quote Originally Posted by bazarov View Post
    Woland says that there are 5 Kant's proofs that God doesn't exist and Berlioz agrees with him. Later, Kant destroyed those evidences and made his own 6th proof. Woland, just before Berlioz was decapitazied tells them that 7th proof will appear in front of them in next minutes.
    I checked my copy and it says the same thing.. i guess my memory is worse than the memory of a goldfish
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  11. #11
    Registered User Boris239's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    I'm not sure there is a particular reason for 27, but I'll answer the question with a question. Is there anything in the book that is represented correctly? With the possible exception of street and place names, everything else seems to be satire, or humor, written so broadly that inversion of what is seen on the page seems closer to reality. In some instances one can recognize the satire from one's own knowledge of conditions then; in other cases one can easily surmise the background situation then for the satirical comments being read now. I thought the book was great fun to read, especially in view of the author's continually sly point of view. Hence, perhaps, the 27 instead of 33 because he expects us to know the correct age without telling us.
    The part of the book about Jeshua does not have much humor, does it?
    Bulgakov shows us that Levy Mathew does not understand much of Jeshua's teachings so what we have left is spoilt and changed version of the real thing- it is clearly the writer's view on the church. Btw, Bulgakov's father was a very well known religious philosopher.
    p.s.
    there is a not very well known russian movie plus recently made TV series.

    Couple of things that I would be interested to find out your opinion:

    Why Master does not deserve light only peace? Who is your favorite from Woland's retinue? Mine without any doubt is Behemoth
    Who is Koroviev really? In the end he transforms into the knight who made a bad joke.

  12. #12
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris239 View Post
    The part of the book about Jeshua does not have much humor, does it?
    Bulgakov shows us that Levy Mathew does not understand much of Jeshua's teachings so what we have left is spoilt and changed version of the real thing- it is clearly the writer's view on the church. Btw, Bulgakov's father was a very well known religious philosopher.
    .
    That was my point too Boris Everything is distorted by
    levy Mathew (i couldn't remember his name for the life of me )

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris239 View Post
    p.s.
    there is a not very well known russian movie plus recently made TV series..
    Is it good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris239 View Post
    Couple of things that I would be interested to find out your opinion:
    Who is your favorite from Woland's retinue? Mine without any doubt is Behemoth
    I can only answer this one (since i have just finished the first part of the book). I reaaaaaaly like the big fat black cat Very clever I have this thing with movies you know and i keep picturing (the whole book) but mostly the cat
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  13. #13
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolia View Post
    Hehe show off
    Stupid computer!
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

  14. #14
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Nice
    Mine has a big fat cat on the cover page

    Hey i saw the pictures..
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  15. #15
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
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    You were quick! I don't know why I couldn't upload them. Did you see the gold? Hope 'll finish it by morning so I can discuss about everything.







    Hah, made it! Tutorial for newbies are always useful
    Last edited by bazarov; 12-06-2007 at 04:43 PM.
    At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
    During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
    The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.

    To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
    If you need me urgent, send me a PM

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