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Thread: The Nature of Mary: the Virgin Birth

  1. #1
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    The Nature of Mary: the Virgin Birth

    This topic was raised in another thread that was closed (I believe) for lack of a specific text. Very well, here goes: 26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

    29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

    34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

    35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."

    38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. (Luke 1:26-38).

    We have here the basics of the issue: Mary is a virgin. She is caused by the Spirit of God to have a child. There is nothing specifically said about her particular character, nor her "holiness" as ordinarily defined. Of course, she is holy in the proper sense: she is set apart by God. Mary is not so very different from any of the other women granted children by the miraculous power of God. I find it interesting that the Catholics do not declare Sarah or Elizabeth to be sinless, but leap upon the chance to do so with Mary. There is no evidence for the "Immaculate Conception" (which is different from the Virgin Birth, this is not always known) of Mary, but there is evidence that she was much the same as everyone else. She is "troubled" by the message given to her, later on she and Joseph rebuke Jesus for His teaching at the temple, later still she and his brothers and sisters (yes, Christ had brothers and sisters, Mary was NOT a perpetual virgin, she quite naturally had intercourse with her husband- she was a virgin until AFTER the Virgin Birth) tried to have Jesus "put away"- most likely into what served for mental institutions in those days: a cave in the desert. Mary was a woman who did good things, but she was sinful as any ordinary human.
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  2. #2
    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    The Immaculate Conception only says that Mary was born without original sin, which in effect differentiates her from Elizabeth and Sarah. I've heard claims that she also lived without sin but that seems a stretch if you ask me.
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  3. #3
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    "tried to have Jesus "put away"- most likely into what served for mental institutions in those days: a cave in the desert."

    Huh? what gibberish is this?
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    Not politically correct Pendragon's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Yes, I agree, Wiff. Scripture reference please on this? And something besides the Pope's proclaimation that indicatates Mary was born of an Immaculate Conception, i.e., without sin.

    In the Bible, Jesus never calls her "Mother" but "woman". Jude is listed as a brother of Jesus, and at one point we find this:

    Matt.12

    [46] While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
    [47] Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
    [48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
    [49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

    Repeated in Luke 8:19-21

    Mary a perpetual virgin? No.
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  5. #5
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    "Mary is not so very different from any of the other women granted children by the miraculous power of God. I find it interesting that the Catholics do not declare Sarah or Elizabeth to be sinless, but leap upon the chance to do so with Mary. There is no evidence for the "Immaculate Conception" "

    I am not a Roman Catholic, or even a Christian, for that matter, but the difference between Mary and any other woman is obvious enough. It is only Mary who, in Christian terms, can be described as "Mother of God," or even "Mother of the Son of the Most High" to quote from your passage above. That makes her unique among women.

    The idea of the Immaculate Conception of Mary does not have to be biblical to be believed. It is a logical extension of the belief that Mary was the chosen vessel of God Incarnate. It is hard to see how any sinful person could be chosen to give birth to God, and for Mary to be sinless it would be necessary for her either to have been purged of sin at the moment Jesus was conceived or for her to have escaped the sinful nature that mankind in general is born to. (I've never quite worked out why that does not imply a series of immaculate conceptions going back from Mary to Eve, but no doubt Richard Hresko has an explanation.)

    "She is "troubled" by the message given to her, later on she and Joseph rebuke Jesus for His teaching at the temple"
    Two more cynical perversions of the texts.
    Any modest maid would be "troubled" on being addressed by an angel, but the passage that you quote [38] shows Mary's instant obedience to God's will, in spite of being fully aware [34] of the difficulties that this will bring her.
    Mary's "rebuke" of Jesus for his teaching in the temple (Luke 2 vv42-51) was nothing more (or less) than the worried concern of a mother whose 12 year old son had disappeared for 4 days in a strange city.

    But, I am probably foolish in answering. Your post, Weepingforloman, is obviously not prompted by an interest in the nature and character of Mary. It is an undisguised bit of Catholic bashing, for which, and I repeat that I am not a Catholic, I would ask the mods to close this thread.
    Voices mysterious far and near,
    Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
    Are calling and whispering in my ear,
    Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?

  6. #6
    Ataraxia bazarov's Avatar
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    This thread is very offending and your ideas are simply ridiculous.
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    mazHur mazHur's Avatar
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    Queen Mary was a sinless woman. This fact is verified by other religious texts as well.

    As for Jesus being the son of god, I have my own reasons to differ. He was not a God or a God's son nor Mary was Mother of God. We humans don't need such a ''comical God'' who indulges in inter-promiscuity with humans. Well, this is my personal opinion based on common sense.

    As regards Immaculate Conception , I believe in it as God is omnipotent ,,,,,

    I also believe Jesus to be a great Prophet of God and that he will have a come back earth as Messiah.

    I am not a religious man but as every man has commonsense I too have a bit of it.

    this is not to be construed as personal under any circumstances , whatsoever.
    ===============-
    When asked how World War III would be fought, Einstein replied that he didn't know. But he knew how World War IV would be fought: With sticks and stones.
    -(:===============

  8. #8
    So Many Eyes! packersfan's Avatar
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    I am unable to dind how this thread is offending. I am Catholic and find your questions cool because i have asked them ago to various people.

    I am not quite sure whether or not believe that the virgin mary was sinless or a virgin. It is quite inpossible scientifically, but God can do anything, according the views of Christians. So therefore it just depends on your beliefs, if you base your beliefs scrictly science or not.

    I'm kind of confused about the cave part.
    Will somebody please explain that to me?
    I intend to live forever...
    so far so good.

  9. #9
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    It is possible to be a virgin and have a baby if the sperm is introduced into the womb be means other than intercourse. It happens.
    I too am confused by the cave reference. I'm guess I'm just not familiar with it. Anyone know?
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  10. #10
    mazHur mazHur's Avatar
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    Like all prophets, Jesus too had many enemies who did not understand his message and wanted to banish him. Cave seems to have been their choicest place for him.
    ===============-
    When asked how World War III would be fought, Einstein replied that he didn't know. But he knew how World War IV would be fought: With sticks and stones.
    -(:===============

  11. #11
    So Many Eyes! packersfan's Avatar
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    What's wrong with that?
    I still am not sure of why Mary was so sinful in doing that...

    I'm not quite sure of that metaphor either, it was like putting people in a mental institution. What's wrong with putting people in a mental institution? It could save their life or others' lives.
    I intend to live forever...
    so far so good.

  12. #12
    mazHur mazHur's Avatar
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    the ppl had misunderstood Jesus,,,,,and they wanted to punish him

    Mary was sinless
    ===============-
    When asked how World War III would be fought, Einstein replied that he didn't know. But he knew how World War IV would be fought: With sticks and stones.
    -(:===============

  13. #13
    So Many Eyes! packersfan's Avatar
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    Sorry-I'm still confused...

    Mary wanted to Jesus to be put in a cave to banish him?
    Or did she put him in a cave to protect him?
    Or did she not want him put in a cave at all?
    I intend to live forever...
    so far so good.

  14. #14
    mazHur mazHur's Avatar
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    mary wanted to protect him,,,,obviously, caves are hiding places
    ===============-
    When asked how World War III would be fought, Einstein replied that he didn't know. But he knew how World War IV would be fought: With sticks and stones.
    -(:===============

  15. #15
    So Many Eyes! packersfan's Avatar
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    Okay. I got that.

    So then, why did up above (first post, last 2 lines-i could quote it but i dont much feel like it, sorry), someone say that she and Jesus' brothers and sisters put Jesus in a mental home, aka, cave. I'm still confused on that metaphor.

    And with Jesus' brothers and sisters,
    where do you get the idea that Jesus has brothers and sisters?
    I'm interested, and had no idea...
    I intend to live forever...
    so far so good.

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