Nature of Sin

[RichardHresko]

St. Augustine in Confessions writes in Book I, Chapter 20:

"For my sin was in this -- that I looked for pleasures, exaltations, truths not in God Himself but in His creatures (myself and the rest), and so I fell stright into sorrows, confusions, and mistakes."

It seems that for Augustine sin is not the breaking of some rule, but something that leads us away from our true happiness. The punishment of sin is really the consequence of the very nature of what makes something a sin.

Thoughts?

[Bakiryu]

Sin is a concept made by the people who wrote the bible. There's no such thing.

[RichardHresko]

Let's start with a usable definition of sin that is not restricted to a Biblical origin. It is certainly true that many cultures have had certain codes of conduct toward an other-world that included both positive acts and prohibitions. To take one example, consider the Greeks and the story of the House of Atreus. in the Oresteia Orestes is put in a double bind because he is both required to avenge his father Agamemnon's murder and is forbidden to commit matricide, even though his mother Clytemnestra was responsible for Agamemnon's death. The Romans had a concept of pietas which extended to dead ancestors.

Even the Christian concept of sin has been heavily influenced by non-Biblical sources. Augustine, from whom I quoted at the start of the thread, relied to a great extent on the neo-Platonists (less so towards the end of his life, but still a presence is there even in City of God).

Is there a positive value to the concept of sin, even outside a religious context? I would suggest that Augustine indicates that there may be.

[NikolaiI]

I think Baki is right; it's a human concept, that we made up, and it isn't anything outside of that. It's like anything else we come up with, but it's taken for more. Anyway I also agree that the result of sin is the punishment for it, the anxiety of not being able to control your thoughts, or something like that. Or Karma.

[Redzeppelin]

Sin is a concept made by the people who wrote the bible. There's no such thing.

Only if God doesn't exist; if God exists, sin exists. Why would selfish, self-interested people make up a concept that restricted their "fun"? And, if they did "make it up," how did it manage to "catch on" and be so successful?

I think Baki is right; it's a human concept, that we made up, and it isn't anything outside of that. It's like anything else we come up with, but it's taken for more. Anyway I also agree that the result of sin is the punishment for it, the anxiety of not being able to control your thoughts, or something like that. Or Karma.

See above.

If sin is made up, then what would you prefer to call evil, or bad, or people's behavior that hurts themselves, others, their relationships, their psyches, the enviroment, etc?

[Bakiryu]

Only if God doesn't exist; if God exists, sin exists. Why would selfish, self-interested people make up a concept that restricted their "fun"? And, if they did "make it up," how did it manage to "catch on" and be so successful?

It's a religion. People always do stupid things on the name of "God". It was adopted by the rich and the powerful but the unbelievers where murdered or converted. Besides who says the "selfish, self-interest people" followed strictly its moral codes? Story is filled with examples of people who didn't.

If sin is made up, then what would you prefer to call evil, or bad, or people's behavior that hurts themselves, others, their relationships, their psyches, the enviroment, etc?

Evil is evil. Self- or another hurting behavior is what it's name says. The only sin is to catalog life in a strict sect of moral codes instead of truly living.

[Redzeppelin]

It's a religion. People always do stupid things on the name of "God". It was adopted by the rich and the powerful but the unbelievers where murdered or converted. Besides who says the "selfish, self-interest people" followed strictly its moral codes? Story is filled with examples of people who didn't.

What is "it"?

People do stupid things for all kinds of reasons: I was bored, I was angry, I was drunk...we can be influenced to be idiots by just about anything. Religion is not unique in its role as inspiration to questionable action.

Your short history of religion is incomplete and composed of the most unprovable of generalizations and hearsay. If I summarized your entire life into one sentence based upon the few things I've read by you in these forums, how might you come across (especially if I disagreed with much of what you said)?

My question didn't get answered: why would people - who are by-and-large selfish and self-interested - create a concept that made everything "fun" taboo? That goes against logic. How would a small group of killjoys make such a restrictive code popular? Spare me the "conversion at the point of the sword" stuff - Christianity was widespread and influencial long before it became (unfortunately) fashionable to shout "God wills it!" and brandish a weapon.

Evil is evil. Self- or another hurting behavior is what it's name says. The only sin is to catalog life in a strict sect of moral codes instead of truly living.

How can you say "the only sin" when you just said above that there's no such thing?

"Evil is evil" - what does that mean? Without God, evil doesn't exist either; instead, all we're left with are things that we disapprove of.

[NikolaiI]

Tell me how you are supposed to be estranged by God from sin, even though he is always at your heart? It seems to me we cannot be estranged from God. I was recently reading a book on Shin buddhism, where the author describes it basically as very similar to Christianity, and talks about self-power and other-power. He says Christian pride, and everything we do by ourselves is self-power, and he begins by saying self-power and other-power are different, and there is a chasm between ourselves and Amida, and ourselves and the Pure Land. Eventually we realize we need to give up trying by ourselves and give in to other power, or something like that...but we should exhaust our energies first, because then we know our limits. And eventually we realize that self-power comes from other-power, and it is other power. And we realize that Pure Land is where we are right now, etc., etc.

But sin...what is that? And good/bad traits, doesn't everything come from God? And anyway, Red, what is your unnatural fixation with the bible, like it is unerring truth? Can't you set that aside at least to communicate?


And anyway, saying that a small group of people invented the concept, or asking why, that just avoids everything. We weren't talking about who invented it or why, we were talking about the concept, specifically the nature of sin...

[Bakiryu]

"Evil is evil" - what does that mean? Without God, evil doesn't exist either; instead, all we're left with are things that we disapprove of.

And what does EVIL has to do with god? Before Christianity there was murder, rape, violence: all great evils. And after it they kept existing. Evil doesn't need god to exist, like good doesn't need HIM/HER either.

[Redzeppelin]

And anyway, Red, what is your unnatural fixation with the bible, like it is unerring truth? Can't you set that aside at least to communicate?

I'm sorry, Nik, but I've reached saturation point with this kind of silly ad hominem stuff. Until you can figure out how to approach my points without resorting to this tactic, you'll get silence from me.

And what does EVIL has to do with god? Before Christianity there was murder, rape, violence: all great evils. And after it they kept existing. Evil doesn't need god to exist, like good doesn't need HIM/HER either.

Your response alternates between God and Christianity - the two aren't synonyms. The terms "evil" and "good" really have no meaning outside of the context of God. Without Him, things that happen on this planet can only be categorized as either things we approve of or disapprove of - but we cannot call anything "good" or "evil" because you need an objective morality to do that and only God can provide that. That's what I meant.

[NikolaiI]

I'm sorry, Nik, but I've reached saturation point with this kind of silly ad hominem stuff. Until you can figure out how to approach my points without resorting to this tactic, you'll get silence from me.



Your response alternates between God and Christianity - the two aren't synonyms. The terms "evil" and "good" really have no meaning outside of the context of God. Without Him, things that happen on this planet can only be categorized as either things we approve of or disapprove of - but we cannot call anything "good" or "evil" because you need an objective morality to do that and only God can provide that. That's what I meant.

I'm not against you, Red, and I'm sorry if you found my post offensive or ad hominem, I didn't mean it that way. The problem is that a lot of what you say reacts violently with me and makes me nervous. I wish you no harm, and I would also be glad to do away with the conversation...anyway have a nice day and I'll talk to you later.


I did have a reason for what I said, however. I don't know if you can see how statements like "How can you say "the only sin" when you just said above that there's no such thing?" Can seem...mean,...it's like, you pretend not to understand either her point, and you also rather randomly take a problem with her using the word 'sin' like that...it was an obvious contrast in her statement, and it wasn't because she wasn't aware of what sin meant..

I don't know. And your question about why people would create such a concept just seems to be avoidance. Anyway I guess that's all for now.

[Redzeppelin]

I don't know. And your question about why people would create such a concept just seems to be avoidance. Anyway I guess that's all for now.

No; my question poses the other side of the rather cavalier suggestion that sin was "made up" by humans. If this is so, then what logical reason did human beings have for "making up" the idea of sin? What's the benefit? Why would people voluntarily create such a thing?

[Bakiryu]

No; my question poses the other side of the rather cavalier suggestion that sin was "made up" by humans. If this is so, then what logical reason did human beings have for "making up" the idea of sin? What's the benefit? Why would people voluntarily create such a thing?

Sin was created as a moral concept to express wrongness in the view of a deity. You may as well ask why did humankind thought up morals. Every religion as a set or rules or "good laws". The disobeying those laws would be something opposite thus "sin."

there are no sins in Buddhism for example, so we'll have to say sin is a concept inherent to other religions, mostly Christ-based.

[Pendragon]

Sin is one of two things and you really don't have to base this on the Bible to see that it is so.

1.) Knowing that something is wrong and doing it anyway. Without a concept that something is wrong, there can be no sin there. But when you know not to do something, let us say taking another person's stuff, stealing, and you do it anyway, that becomes sin, you wronged someone.

2.) Knowing that you should do something and refusing to do it. This comes into play when a situation develops where we could do our part to make it better. But we cannot be bothered. I'm recalling a news story of a man who died on a L.A. street of a heart attack. Not only did no one help by even calling 911, but he lay there three days and people calmly stepped over the body on the sidewalk. That is selfish sinful behavior agaist humanity.

I could take these back to the Bible, but I think I have made my point anyway. Ryu, if everyone acted like these two examples all the time, and many do, is that not sin against us all?

God Bless

Pen

[Whifflingpin]

Redzeppelin: "No; my question poses the other side of the rather cavalier suggestion that sin was "made up" by humans. If this is so, then what logical reason did human beings have for "making up" the idea of sin? What's the benefit? Why would people voluntarily create such a thing?"

A priestly caste might make up the idea of sin as an instrument of control, or a tool for the acquisition of wealth.