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Thread: 1984- the end?

  1. #1
    Serious business Taliesin's Avatar
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    1984- the end?

    I have been wondering how and when could the 1984 regime end.
    I mean, everything will end someday, even if it means that the sun will explode after 4 billion years.
    My possible answers would be:
    *Prole uprise - I don't think that it is probable. They had the power, but they did not know that they had it.
    *Crumbling at the top - also improbable. If one of the inner party would decide that the regime should end, he/she would be killed instantly by the others.
    *Exhaustion of natural resources ;an ecological ending - would mean the end of human race, personally I think that it's the most probable
    *Mayor freak accident, like a great mistake made at the top, catastrophies, one of the big three countries would be conquered or smth like that - improbable. The system is too strong to be destroyed by freak accidents
    *The sun explodes after 4 million years

    What do you think?

    Oh, and excuse my grammatical errors; english is not my first language

  2. #2
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    How about a militar defeat at the hands of another (and real) dictatorship/empire?
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  3. #3
    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    The three wourld powers seemed to work together thought, after all having a common enemy is a good way for dictators to steer the peoples discontent away from the gov., it seemed to me that the three major govs, were either secretly one or helped eachother to hold control over their own populace.

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    Stanislaw Lem
    1921 - 2006, Rest In Peace.
    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

  4. #4
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw
    it seemed to me that the three major govs, were either secretly one or helped eachother to hold control over their own populace.
    You think so? I'm not so sure about that. Truth is, Winston recalls throughout the novel that the government of Oceania had gone to war against both Eurasia and Eastasia in the past, but after some time they claimed to be allies. But this state of things isn't explained by Orwell, but by Winston, and he only repeats the things the party has said to him in the past years. What if the true nature of the world is not that which Big Brother claimed? It seems pretty posible to me that the actual order of things was very different than the one Big Brother wanted people to accept. Of course, giving a biased view of the world to justify the current situation inside a country is one of the trademarks of a dictatorship or any totalitarian regime (actually, come to think about it, it's not that uncommon in democracies).
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  5. #5
    fated loafer
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    "*Exhaustion of natural resources ;an ecological ending - would mean the end of human race, personally I think that it's the most probable"

    I agree with you on that Taliesin, I think that eventually they would just deplete the environemnt until they could not sustain the lify style and the regime to the potential they wanted. Eventually becusae of the depleting resources their cover would be blown and the empire would crumble. And proabably the other two governments would take over and there would be a new form of government.

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    I think one of the key principles of the party, and the parties governing Eurasia and East Asia was equilibrium. Ideally, or as O'Brian put it, the party would remain static. If an equilibrium had, or could, be reached then in all likelyhood it is conceivable that the party could remain in power indefinitely. Some natural resources are renewable, e.g.: drinking water and lumber. Others are not, such as fossil fuels and certain metals. Taking a darker perspective, one could imagine the party would find a way to circumvent an eventual depletion of fossil fuels. Remember that science, although dead in Engsoc, is still alive if it does the will of the party. Items such as telescreens, weapons, listening devices are all examples of technology used to control people. If and when fossil fuels were to run out, one would think that the party "scientists" would devise a way to make their machines run on alternative fuels.

    As with most of my favorite books, the ending is not really an ending at all, leaving a great deal to be thought over and re-read. I've read the book five times now and each time I seem to discover something I hadn't picked up on before.

    My opinion? I'd have to say that the party would most likely be "forever". The setting of the book, vis-a-vis the rise of EngSoc, illustrates an increasing amount of power the party has upon its citizens. The increased prevalance of newspeak, the 11th edition of the dictionary, the abolition of the orgasm: all of these are tools in the process of implementation. If we, the readers, are to agree with the fact that these will be implemented it is conceivable that the party would have true thought-control over all its inhabitants. At that point, there can be no resistance, no Winstons.

    Then again, there are the proles, the largest slice of the pie. In another thread someone noted that they most likely would never revolt, since they wouldn't know any better then the way things are.

    Orwell painted a very grim picture indeed...
    Last edited by Ingenieur; 06-15-2004 at 10:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Sajab, sajab lõpmata...
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    I think that the uprising of proles would be the most probable event to end the totalitarian regime. The history has shown that working class has the necessary power to defeat rulers. They had the power and they didn`t know that they had it, I agree, but masses have never known it. Of course, it is fiction but according to reality proles would have defeated the Party if the story had gone on and not the resistance. I personally think there was no resistance, stories of it were spread to capture people who had doubts about the Party and Winston swallowed the bate. In reality proles would have bad life and they would start rebelling with the government and win it because the strongest power is in masses who act according to their needs.
    I have nothing to declare but my own genius (O. Wilde)

  8. #8
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    I disagree. Hope may lie with the proles (and I think it does), but that's the least probable outcome, and Orwell (through Winston) expresses that feeling in the book in my opinion. Once a totalitarian regime is established, it'll be very difficult to eradicate, and even more so by internal happenings. The thing with the proles, as Orwell puts it, is this: "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious." Unless there's a way around this, I don't see how an uprising could exist. Besides, the ones that caused the most trouble to Big Brother weren't the proles, but the members of the party who had second thoughts. And that's why they're the ones being monitored, because they could pose a potential threat. The proles weren't at all concerned with the state of things, and even if they were, they were the most likely to submit to the party's propaganda. The proles might have the power to depose the regime, but without some sort of direction they would get nowhere.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  9. #9
    King of Plastic Spoons imthefoolonthehill's Avatar
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    i'm not going to bother with reading all of your answers, so if this has been said already, sorry.

    Obviously, the party will eventually turn against itself, and death within the party due to stagnation is the highest probablitity... that or volcanic eruptions... take your pick. :-D
    Told by a fool, signifying nothing.

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    Well put, Crisaor. But if there is hope, it lie in the proles. I guess one could hypothesize that, eventually, a Che Guevara would rise up within the proles. A voice of reason, a single consciousness that could be the catalyst to a revolution. However based on the text of the novel alone, the reader is left with an overwhelming sense that The Party is in fact forever. Barring a cataclysmic natural disaster, I still feel that the chances of a proletariat uprising or of an outer-party conspiracy are slim to none.

  11. #11
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imthefoolonthehill
    i'm not going to bother with reading all of your answers, so if this has been said already, sorry.
    Then why do you bother to be here?
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  12. #12
    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    Theoretically "hope" lay with the proles, however I believe that they were not heavily affected by the main party. They went about their daily buisness as the would under any leader, Winston even said that the party rules were not strictly enforced in the proles, it was mainly inforced in the party memebers and with those who held authoritative positions. I believe that for the main part they were unaware of what the party was doing to "traitors", The situation almost reminds me of Nazi Germany.

    ---------------
    Stanislaw Lem
    1921 - 2006, Rest In Peace.
    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

  13. #13
    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw
    The situation almost reminds me of Nazi Germany.
    Despite their differences, this kind of regimes seem to be very alike, as in a common nightmare.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  14. #14
    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    There are only so many ways to rule with fear, the name may change but the machine is still the same.

    ---------------
    Stanislaw Lem
    1921 - 2006, Rest In Peace.
    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

  15. #15
    precious... subterranean's Avatar
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    Indeed Stan.

    i find several local authors with similiar descritption of how the main actors changes their beliefs coz of tortures, i wonder whether they were inspired by these book. But somehow i belief that the second president of my country read this book and used it as guidance..beside "the prince" of course, and somehow i experience the meaning of double-thinking or double-think, though less extreme. i remembered the presindent's annual reports said that agricultural ministry had increased farmer's revenue and we were forced to believed that each year. But many years later when the regime had fell, it was so obvious than farmers couldnt even buy fertilizer for their crops.


    "there are people in the world so hungry that God can not appear to them except in the form of bread"

    Mahatma Gandhi

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