The Trees of Eden

[weepingforloman]

I came upon an interesting section tonight in John Calvin's The Institutes of the Christian Religion, in which he mentions an idea he attributes to Augustine and Eucherius. The idea is this: the Tree of Life prefigures Christ, in that it provides life to those who take of it, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil prefigures man's reliance on his own will, in that it causes death by separating man from God. This sheds new light for me on Genesis 3:22, which Prince Myshkin had brought up in a different thread: it is bad that man became more like God, in that man took on an aspect of God that he never should have. God always relies upon Himself, upon His own will, because it is sufficient. Man should not do this, because he is meant to be "fueled" by God. If, by taking from the Tree of the Knowledge, Adam and Eve tried to depend on their own will, this is adopting one of the features of God that is not meant for mankind (among the others are utterly uninterested love, judgment, and punishment). Man is meant to be dependent on God, but tried to make himself independent, and thus caused himself to die. Any thoughts?

[motherhubbard]

Wow, I have never considered that. I do see how you can make a connection there. I'll need to study on that.

[Gorilla King]

Now you've gone and made me even more eager to read that book!

It's a very astute observation. Now that I have nearly a dozen classes under my belt for theology I'm really starting to see just how much of Christ is contained in the Old Testament. It's funny and yet in a way completely absurd, but when Jesus said seek and you shall find He wasn't joking. The deeper I get into the Bible, the more of Him I find.

As to the trees specifically, I agree with what you've said. The sufficiency of God unto Himself was never meant to be a trait which man could possess. We were designed to need God. Post-fall that manifests itself in many different ways. For the faithful person, they return to God as the source of their need. For the secular person, they often turn to a cause or an organization or even something as base as pleasure. For the despairing person, they despair because they lack a source to fill their need (whether authentic as in God or imagined as in the offerings of the world).

[Orionsbelt]

I don't see the tree of life link. I do see the link in the bible story between the tree of knowlege to self awareness. God's question to Adam was "who told you that you were naked?" In my mind the implication is that Adam is now able to place himself in the perspective of another. Once this is possible, it is possible to choose compassion or not. Hence giving birth to the ability chose to do wrong. Death ... only a being aware of himself and another can be aware of and speculate/fear his own end and so death enters the world. Very good stuff.

[weepingforloman]

Christ provides spiritual life, just as the Tree provides physical life. The other, the Tree of Knowledge, makes it so that Adam can distinguish between good and evil, thus making him dependent on himself instead of on God, and thus introduces sin, causing even the newfound ability to see good and evil crippled (consider how many children think it's perfectly fine to hit, steal, bully, etc. until they are taught otherwise).

[PrinceMyshkin]

Christ provides spiritual life, just as the Tree provides physical life.

No. If you are drawing upon the Bible, draw accurately on it, see Genesis 2:7.

[Gorilla King]

No. If you are drawing upon the Bible, draw accurately on it, see Genesis 2:7.

I think he's talking of life in terms of nourishment and not in terms of creation.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I think he's talking of life in terms of nourishment and not in terms of creation.

Gen 2:7 "and man became a living soul."

You may think what you like but surely it behooves you to give at least a moment's contemplation to the plain, apparent meaning of the words? It seems like a very wilfull stretch from "soul" to e.g, broccoli & steak...

[weepingforloman]

We are spiritually dead, due to sin, until we are made regenerate in Christ. Plus, I think you use a KJV? Don't trust that translation.

[Gorilla King]

yeah the KJV is one of the least accurate. The TNIV is considered one of the better ones.

[PrinceMyshkin]

We are spiritually dead, due to sin, until we are made regenerate in Christ. Plus, I think you use a KJV? Don't trust that translation.

We will each of us use the translation that best suits what we want or have chosen to believe. Bear in mind that the Hebrew of the Old Testament is itself a translation from earlier texts. And that the Gospels are based on oral accounts that may/must have been altered bit by bit as they were handed on. And that the meanings of these various texts have been interopreted and reinterpreted by how many councils and theologians?

yeah the KJV is one of the least accurate. The TNIV is considered one of the better ones.

Considered by contemporary wisdom, but surely you have read Karen Armstrong on how the concept of God has changed from period to period?

And please see my prior response to Weeping (above).

[motherhubbard]

Gen 2:7 "and man became a living soul."

You may think what you like but surely it behooves you to give at least a moment's contemplation to the plain, apparent meaning of the words? It seems like a very wilfull stretch from "soul" to e.g, broccoli & steak...

Did you mean to sound condescending?

I think we all see what you are saying, Prince. But, you are misunderstanding what is being said about life coming from Christ. Physical life comes from God as well as our souls, as you mentioned. But there are dozens and dozens of references about Christ being the source of eternal life. If you’ll read the Gospel of John, especially maybe the sixth chapter you’ll see the connection.

Here are a few examples, please feel free to give at least a moment's contemplation to the plain, apparent meaning of the words. Broccoli doesn't live forever.

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Did you mean to sound condescending?

Yes, I did. When someone professes to believe in Scripture and to live his life by it, and when I point out to him that scripture itself contradicts something he has just said, and he retorts that I was using a faulty translation and offers me what he considers to be a better one, then I have no recourse other than to sarcasm or condescension, as one would when dealing with a child who will defend himself with one excuse or fabrication when the first has been exposed.

I think we all see what you are saying, Prince. But, you are misunderstanding what is being said about life coming from Christ. Physical life comes from God as well as our souls, as you mentioned. But there are dozens and dozens of references about Christ being the source of eternal life. If you’ll read the Gospel of John, especially maybe the sixth chapter you’ll see the connection.

Here are a few examples, please feel free to give at least a moment's contemplation to the plain, apparent meaning of the words. Broccoli doesn't live forever.

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"Broccoli doesn't live forever. " Very witty, and I think I would like you for that. And yet all that you suggest above are nothing but the words of men, fallible men, who no doubt believed sincerely - according to their understanding - what they wrote and whose words have been sanctified over the ages by other believers. There is a German word "lebensluge," which means the lie that we need in order to survive. These are if not lies, then fairy-tales, myths, noble ones in some case, but the danger is that they blind us to the hard material realities that must be faced if we are to survive. God will not, apparently, help us. He has already failed so many...

Bear in mind that I am a Jew and that the shadow of the 5,100,000 hangs over me, many of whom, no doubt believed as sincerely as you do in God and died with their appeals to Him on their tongues.

[weepingforloman]

Please don't resort to insults and to questioning the accuracy of the text. Christ is the source of salvation- and that includes eternal life. Thus, He is the source of life. I don't see what the Holocaust has to do with this issue... It was terrible, but so are other things. It is not God who fails when wrong is done, it is humanity. And death is not the end, nor is it the ultimate evil.

God bless.

[Gorilla King]

Prince, I'm a theology major. I've studied the translations. There's three categories basically. There's the poetical translations which sacrifice accuracy for a better flow of words(where the KJV falls), the open translations (such as the message) and the literal translations (which is closer to where the TNIV falls). You can protest all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that your chosen text is one of the least accurate.

What's more, your claims about the old and new testament texts and the processes of transmission are utter nonsense and I would encourage you to read "The Historical Jesus by Habermas.