Islam

[Virgil]

You mean like God giving Moses the Ten Commandments???? That doesn't sound subjective. Quite tangible. Or the Apostles meeting the ressurected Christ? How is that subjective? It sounds like it's what you choose to consider subjective.

Let me add that I would have addded other examples of non-subjective experience from other religions, especially Islam, but my knowledge of Islam is poor I'm afraid and I felt uncomfortable doing so. I would prefer my post to suggest a universal answer rather than a parochial. But wasn't Mouhammed spoken to by Allah? If so, that is not subjective.

[linz]

Mouhammed wasnt concerned why arabs didnt get massage, as Jews got one and christians one. If a person is Jews because they believe in Moses pbuh then muslims are jews, and if christians are christians because they follow Jesus pbuh then muslims are christians. islam is not religion for arabs its religion for all mankind thats why prophet Mouhammed pbuh sent massages to king of egypt who was christian and to Romans king and to persian king who was disbeliever, even at the begining of islam there were companions one was jews and one was christian and one was disbeliever.
Islam claim to be the right judasim and came to correct the ideas about Moses, same thing about jesus and his mother and about all other prophets that other books claim that they were drunk or made incest or adultery peace be upon them all, thats why a muslim is not muslim if he doesnt believe in Jesus or Moses or Noah even if he believe in Mouhammed. And most important of islam is to give the right idea and belief about God, one almighty nothing like him, he got no wife no son no father no man form no incarnation no one equal to him no stones equal to him, he always was and will be and every thing is lower than him and every thing else was created by him. If you got any one that claim these things nowadays then he is muslim.
Budha can be compared to pagans at time of Mouhammed pbub who believed in one God but they made stones and worshiped them to make them closer to God, i think same thing the far east countries believe, so no way to be compared with Mouhammed and jesus peace be upon them.
God is not subjected to man experience as Lote intend, i think in part yes, meaning that knowing God come after we look around and come to result that all this came from stupid quincedence. The idea of God doesnt not change but the way in believing change, some add the stones some add the cows and so on, but the main idea cant be canceled, for me there is one way only right and to be known we most experience and think here the claim of Lote will be right.

I have a question. If I had sought righteousness during my life and thought much about the bad sides of 'Capitalism' and much also about the oppressed, would Allah eventually forgive me not having been a Muslim during 'The Reckoning'? (I stress, eventually forgive me, because I do think that God would attempt to correct men, especially just men.)

[Tuesday]

I would prefer my post to suggest a universal answer rather than a parochial. But wasn't Mouhammed spoken to by Allah? If so, that is not subjective.

I think it was the archangel Gabriel. Might have been a different occasion, though.

[Lote-Tree]

You mean like God giving Moses the Ten Commandments???? That doesn't sound subjective.
Quite tangible. Or the Apostles meeting the ressurected Christ? How is that subjective? It sounds like it's what you choose to consider subjective.

Burning Bush, Angels are not logical entities. They are subjective experiences of the individual. God speaking to Muhammad (though its the angel Gabriel according to Islamic sources) are subjective experiences.

[Virgil]

Burning Bush, Angels are not logical entities. They are subjective experiences of the individual. God speaking to Muhammad (though its the angel Gabriel according to Islamic sources) are subjective experiences.

How is that a subjective experience? In that case your existance is a subjective experience. And then everything reduces to nothing.

[Tuesday]

Burning Bush, Angels are not logical entities. They are subjective experiences of the individual. God speaking to Muhammad (though its the angel Gabriel according to Islamic sources) are subjective experiences.

But a voice inside your head is quite different from a burning bush, if only that the latter might be perceived by other people apart from yourself as well. My intuition tells me that the burning bush is objective while the message from God is subjective.

If you propose that there is no such thing as objectivity at all, this doesn't make sense, of course.

[Lote-Tree]

How is that a subjective experience? In that case your existance is a subjective experience. And then everything reduces to nothing.

No. Everything is not reduced to nothing. We have scientific method and deductive logic to asscertain objectivity.

God/Angel speaking to Muhammad is not an objective experience.

[linz]

You have both Tuesday and Lote-Tree come to a paradox; Best to quite then to reason at this stage.

[Lote-Tree]

If you propose that there is no such thing as objectivity at all, this doesn't make sense, of course.

On the contrary. Objective Reality Exists. We use the scientific method and deductive logic to ascertain objectivity.

[Tuesday]

On the contrary. Objective Reality Exists. We use the scientific method and deductive logic to ascertain objectivity.

Why do you regard a burning bush as a solely subjective experience then? I can't quite follow you here.

[Lote-Tree]

Why do you regard a burning bush as a solely subjective experience then? I can't quite follow you here.

Because angels and burning bushes, seas parting - these things are not logical things are events.

[Virgil]

No. Everything is not reduced to nothing. We have scientific method and deductive logic to asscertain objectivity.

God/Angel speaking to Muhammad is not an objective experience.

Oh don't tell me about scientific method. I'm an engineer. Much scientific method is based on observation, sensory perception such as listening to something or seeing something. It seems you would classify that as subjective. All observations in that case are subjective. People get hung based on eyewitness of a murder.

It sounds like it's what you [Lote] choose to consider subjective.

It sounds like this statement holds up more and more.

[Tuesday]

Because angels and burning bushes, seas parting - these things are not logical things are events.

So basically you're proposing that all those events -burning bushes as well as celestial voices- are not logical. Therefore, they are not likely to have happened in reality and were probably mere hallucinations by single persons?

[nomoredrama28]

Rene Descartes gives good reason to why the thought of god must be real.

[Lote-Tree]

Oh don't tell me about scientific method. I'm an engineer.

Then you should know Scientific Method and deductive logic removes subjectivity from the equation.

Much scientific method is based on observation, sensory perception such as listening to something or seeing something.

And these things has to be verifiable. That is the Scientific Method.

So basically you're proposing that all those events -burning bushes as well as celestial voices- are not logical. Therefore, they are not likely to have happened in reality and were probably mere hallucinations by single persons?

From logical point of view - yes correct. The encounter between man and divine have never been logical enounters. Angels and Burning bushes are not logical things or events. But I would not say these things are mere hallucinations. They are product of a "meditative-trance".

I would argue that "transcendence" is the key to human spirituality, and the reality that many have called "God", "Allah", "Nirvana", "Tao", "Brahman-Atman" are derived from the human experience of this "transcendence". Essence of all scripture is therefore is an interpretation in limited human language of a "transcendent" reality that lies beyond reason and language. This has also been the insight of the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Mystics and Meditators. And therefore "God" has never been an OBJECTIVE fact but has always been a SUBJECTIVE experience of the individual. Even Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to highest heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative-trance" to meet his "maker". Therefore "Revelation" is an event that happens in each individual's soul and therefore every individual is capable of having an experience like the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Mystics and Meditators.

Can we objectively verify this Transcendental Reality? No.
Can we experience it within? Yes.