June / Lawrence Reading: 'Women in Love'

[Janine]

Thanks Virgil!! It's very distracting to me to think to myself everytime I encounter a name, "How am I supposed to pronounce this!?"

Hi Shannon, I do the exact same thing. I sometimes skip right over a word in my mind (bad habit actually) or just slur it if I don't know how to pronounce it. I could never read aloud when I was in grade-school or even high school, which was a real problem, apparently for my teachers. They enhanced my whole stigma of reading by their impatient attitudes. I think now it is probably just a right-brain/left brain thing.
I think it depends on who is pronouncing the name Gudrum. The woman on Virgil's audio may pronounce it Good - run but I have heard it pronounced Gu-drun, (or like Gou-drun) in the film version I own, so who knows? I have heard some of the audiobook people pronounce things pretty differently at times. I have never heard it pronounced Good - like in the work good...interesting. Does it really matter at all?..."A rose by any other name...."

[manolia]

Nice posts Janine and Virgil. Reading your posts clarify many things for me (i am convinced that Lawrence's writting is very complicated and that there are many things between the lines). What you already said about duality makes perfect sense (and in the two sisters too).
One thing i want to comment is L's references to paintings (the chinese painting in chapter 7(?) for instance and in other chapters as well). It seems that he knows very well what he is talking about. Was he a painter as well? I remember having read something to that effect (if i am not mistaking him with somebody elsle).
Another thing i didn't quite get was Gerald's obsession to give money to the Pussum after the night they spend together? Why?

[Janine]

Nice posts Janine and Virgil. Reading your posts clarify many things for me (i am convinced that Lawrence's writting is very complicated and that there are many things between the lines). What you already said about duality makes perfect sense (and in the two sisters too).

Hi manolia, so nice to see you here and that you are also reading along. Thank you for reading the post and for your compliments. I am glad they are clarifying many things for you about the book. Virgil first got me looking more deeply into the 'opposites/duality' themes in Lawrence's books. I had not entirely thought that out prior to this forum and now I notice so much more when I read. Thanks, Virgil!
We have also run into this theme in Lawrence's short stories over and over again.

Yes, your are quite right - the writing is very complicated and one must read between the lines. There are a lot of nuances in the character studies, don't you think? It is similiar to viewing performances in a film, when one sees a very nuanced performance. In that case one must read the expressions, etc. I see it in Lawrence's writing, as well; for instance, in the posturing and body language of the characters there is much more than what they actually say. It is very apparent and almost exaggerated in Hermione. He often says she is "looking at him with leering eyes 'along her cheeks' " - I thought this of particular interest in the way he describes how she gazes or looks at a person. It is repeated several times throughout and noteworthy. It seems to indicate to me that she is not an honest or direct person and one who is sort of sneering at others; she holds her head high in an attitude of contempt and snobbery and suspicion.

One thing i want to comment is L's references to paintings (the chinese painting in chapter 7(?) for instance and in other chapters as well). It seems that he knows very well what he is talking about. Was he a painter as well? I remember having read something to that effect (if i am not mistaking him with somebody elsle).
Another thing i didn't quite get was Gerald's obsession to give money to the Pussum after the night they spend together? Why?

Manolia, excellent observation! Yes, Lawrence painted when he was a youth and a young man; later and from time to time he picked it up again; and near the end of his life he even had a showing in London, which did not go over too well. His paintings from this period were quite provocative and London was no way ready at that time to accept them....many in fact were confiscated by the police. I believe he never got some of those back, but I am not sure of that fact.

His paintings are somewhat primative and sketchy and some can be viewed online, but they are hard to locate. There is a book for sale on Amazon, but rather expensive of his paintings/drawings. Virgil and I have come up with a few online and I have some in my picture file. Neither of us truly like them but it depends on your taste and I can only say I am glad his writing was better than his art; I feel his art was only mediocre, but interesting in some ways.

But Lawrence did very much enjoy art and artists and had a number of artist friends. He copied a lot when he was younger such as is depicted of Birkin in WIL. I read that and knew right away Birkin to be Lawrence, and I liked his explaination to Hermoine as to why he copied. That attitude was all Lawrence. On the cover of Lawrence's first novel, "The White Peacock', is a copy/watercolor painting by Lawrence, of "Idyll" by Maurice Griffenhagen. It is kept in the collection of the Nottingham University Library. He often copied this painting, since he loved it so much; in fact he was kind of obsessed with it.

In the current story for 'Short Story thread' there is a mention of watercolors he has left behind with his former girlfriend. I picked right up on the mention of a watercolor painting on the wall of her house, that he had done as a youth. I knew that Lawrence did indeed give some paintings to Jessie, his first love interest and his character of Miriam in "Sons and Lovers". He depicted Paul (the image of himself) in "Sons and Lovers" as a young aspiring artist.

Often in Lawrence's writing he speaks of art and artists. He also speaks much in WIL of Gudrun's art and of art in general. You may have read about the statue in the house of one of Birkin's friends. Art seems extremely significant to Lawrence. I think that Lawrence writes as though he is painting, what do you think? I believe that is why I am so drawn to his prose and poetry.

Lawrence once said that, when he painted, he did not write and when he wrote, he stopped painting. He alternated all his life with each, and of course, became famous/known for his writing alone, which was the more dominent.

[manolia]

Janine thank you very much for your explanation and all the interesting information. Yes i agree his style of writing is like he is painting. Interesting what you say about Hermione..i also believe that she is a very sly person and i think that she has already realised (i am in the beginning of ch 8) that something is going on between Birkin and Ursula. I have read in a post in another thread that L's books need a Freudian approach in order to understand them better. This might actually be true. I get the impression that many things revolve around the "male-female" eternal conflict..the game of power between the two sexes.. etc (of course there are more things than these for example the idea of marriage vs freedom - Birkin says something to Hermione implying that she wants to get married)..What do you think?

[Janine]

manolia, First, I forgot for answer this part of your last post. You had this question:

Another thing i didn't quite get was Gerald's obsession to give money to the Pussum after the night they spend together? Why?

The answer to this question is made clear in Chapter 8; since you did not read that chapter yet, I won't comment on it. It is in the scene when Birkin and Gerald go upstairs to sleep - they have ajoining rooms and Gerald comes in to talk to Birkin about the evening and the Brangwen sisters. Birkin will mention the Pussum and the money issue and Birkin comes directly to the point as to why Gerald wants to pay her. Birkin is very perceptive.

Janine thank you very much for your explanation and all the interesting information. Yes i agree his style of writing is like he is painting. Interesting what you say about Hermione..i also believe that she is a very sly person and i think that she has already realised (i am in the beginning of ch 8) that something is going on between Birkin and Ursula. I have read in a post in another thread that L's books need a Freudian approach in order to understand them better. This might actually be true. I get the impression that many things revolve around the "male-female" eternal conflict..the game of power between the two sexes.. etc (of course there are more things than these for example the idea of marriage vs freedom - Birkin says something to Hermione implying that she wants to get married)..What do you think?

manolia, so glad this helped. It is very interesting, isn't it? I can't get enough information about Lawrence's life - it all fascinates me so. Glad you agree that his writing is like painting in words. I very much think it is. If you participate in the Short Story thread - it is a short one this time - you will see just how graphically beautiful Lawrence can write, he describes the woodland and flowers like it is painting on the page...the vivid images jump out at you. In WIL, when you come to the scene when Birkin runs out into the woodland and fields, you will also see how sensual and beautiful is his writing - like a luminous painting.

Always, yes, the Freudian is there - Lawrence discovered Freud and books about the Id during his early years of marriage - mid 20's. He was quite enamoured with the new ideas of the day on the subconscious. I think that Virgil will have more to say on this. He probably knows more about Lawrence's views, than I, on the subject. If you check the posts at the near end of the last short story - PO, Virgil makes his views quite clear on his thoughts on Lawrence and the subconscious.
I don't always agree on Lawrence's views of the subconcious, either, or the theories he developed of his own on these subjects, but I do believe in the subconsious affecting people's actions.

In some ways, Lawrence wanted to be the dominent one, when it came to women. I think this comes through in his books. The man leads and the woman follows in his footsteps. It was true in Lawrence's own life. He traveled almost his entire life, and his wife faithfully went where he wanted to go. In one way Lawrence (and his character of Birkin) craves balance and equality, but in another way he contradicts this with wanting to be dominent, as the man and the leader. In my own opinion, Lawrence struggled with this idea his entire life. His marriage to Frieda was reported, time and time again, as far from "a marriage made in heaven". There were periods of turmoil and struggle, between he and his wife, and then as he saw it, supreme happiness. Lawrence could be very domineering and cynical and opinionated at times. That is not to say he was not well liked and even loved, but he was a difficult man to befriend and to live with. He was very attractive to people, but many friends disowned him as a friend. He offended a lot of people, especially by using them in his books and stories. I know that Hermoine was based on a woman who Lawrence befriended and then she recognised herself in Hermoine, of course exaggerated, and she dropped their friendship; wouldn't anyone be offended being described as Hermoine?

Yes, I think you are absolutely right about this novel and your "impression that many things revolve around 'the male-female' eternal conflict..the game of power between the two sexes.. etc". That is very well expressed and true. The whole novel is based on it and the outcome as well. Perhaps as you said it is good to think of L's novels from a Freudian point of view, but I don't think it is totally necessary to know of Freud's theories, since oft time Lawrence alters them to suit his own theories on the subconscious and life. Lawrence was very much an idealist.

[Virgil]

Another thing i didn't quite get was Gerald's obsession to give money to the Pussum after the night they spend together? Why?

Well, there are men who at the hint of possible sex will go to great lengths, including spendng lots of their money, in getting it. I think the point is that Gerald can be captivated with that possibility.

[Janine]

Well, there are men who at the hint of possible sex will go to great lengths, including spendng lots of their money, in getting it. I think the point is that Gerald can be captivated with that possibility.

Virgil, how true, how true! However, there is a lot more going on here in Lawrence's multi-layered text: Note the conversation between Gerald and Birkin, Chapter 8:

Gerald looked at his watch, and at length rose off the bed, and went to his room. But he returned in a few minutes, in his shirt.
`One thing,' he said, seating himself on the bed again. `We finished up rather stormily, and I never had time to give her anything.'

`Money?' said Birkin. `She'll get what she wants from Halliday or from one of her acquaintances.'

`But then,' said Gerald, `I'd rather give her her dues and settle the account.'

`She doesn't care.'

`No, perhaps not. But one feels the account is left open, and one would rather it were closed.'

`Would you?' said Birkin. He was looking at the white legs of Gerald, as the latter sat on the side of the bed in his shirt. They were white-skinned, full, muscular legs, handsome and decided. Yet they moved Birkin with a sort of pathos, tenderness, as if they were childish.

`I think I'd rather close the account,' said Gerald, repeating himself vaguely.

`It doesn't matter one way or another,' said Birkin.

`You always say it doesn't matter,' said Gerald, a little puzzled, looking down at the face of the other man affectionately.

`Neither does it,' said Birkin.

`But she was a decent sort, really --'

`Render unto Caesarina the things that are Caesarina's,' said Birkin, turning aside. It seemed to him Gerald was talking for the sake of talking. `Go away, it wearies me -- it's too late at night,' he said.

`I wish you'd tell me something that did matter,' said Gerald, looking down all the time at the face of the other man, waiting for something. But Birkin turned his face aside.

`All right then, go to sleep,' said Gerald, and he laid his hand affectionately on the other man's shoulder, and went away.

In the morning when Gerald awoke and heard Birkin move, he called out: `I still think I ought to give the Pussum ten pounds.'

`Oh God!' said Birkin, `don't be so matter-of-fact. Close the account in your own soul, if you like. It is there you can't close it.'

`How do you know I can't?'

`Knowing you.'

Gerald meditated for some moments.

I emphasis this particular line which is very important:

`Oh God!' said Birkin, `don't be so matter-of-fact. Close the account in your own soul, if you like. It is there you can't close it.'

It is not to help this woman (Birkin says she does not want money or need it), or to even try to get more sex from her, that Gerald wants to pay, he wants rather to wash his hands of the whole encounter/affair, therefore be free of her in his own mind. He is selfishly thinking only of himself. Birkin knows his friend and how he thinks by now. Also, Gerald relates greatly to money, whereas Birkin does not.

[Virgil]

Very good Janine. Yes, he wants to settle the situation and end it. When I made my statement I was thinking of chapter six where he's buying her drinks and oysters and whatever else.

[Janine]

Very good Janine. Yes, he wants to settle the situation and end it. When I made my statement I was thinking of chapter six where he's buying her drinks and oysters and whatever else.

Thanks! Yes, he was indulging her in chapter 6, your are right; that was prior to him spending the night with her. He would have given her the moon at that point - he's a man isn't he?

Virgil, did you read manolia and my posts to each other? If you noticed, my post (right before your last one that brought up this whole issue on the payment to the Possum) approximately in the middle I mentioned that you might expound on the Freudian ideas in Lawrence's work and give manolia a better understanding than I did. Also, see the question that manolia asks first. Can you comment on this and the struggle between the sexes in Lawrence's works and especially in WIL so far? I thought it might also relate to your thesis in some way - the Freud issues, etc.

[Virgil]

Thanks! Yes, he was indulging her in chapter 6, your are right; that was prior to him spending the night with her. He would have given her the moon at that point - he's a man isn't he?

Virgil, did you read manolia and my posts to each other? If you noticed, my post (right before your last one that brought up this whole issue on the payment to the Possum) approximately in the middle I mentioned that you might expound on the Freudian ideas in Lawrence's work and give manolia a better understanding than I did. Also, see the question that manolia asks first. Can you comment on this and the struggle between the sexes in Lawrence's works and especially in WIL so far? I thought it might also relate to your thesis in some way - the Freud issues, etc.

Yes, he's a man. But Birkin doesn't go for that. I think there's a point there.

As to the Freudian ideas in lawrence. There is no question he was fascinated with Freud and inspired him to think his own ideas through and even wrote a book or two on the sub-conscious. I think Lawrence would consider himself not a Freudian. However I am not knowledgable enough to understand the distinctions between L's own idas and Freud's. The early Lawrence seems very much Freudian to me. The latter Lawrence, from the mid 1920's on to his death, seems much more a Jungian. The middle Lawrence, which Women In Love is, seems fairly distinct. I don't really know. You know I consider it all a crock (sorry if you get mad at me for that ) so I'm not able to really understand nor care about the distinctions. I think it would suffice to say that Lawrence believes in sub-conscious forces that are more powerful than our conscious will and which rule our personalities and actions.

[Janine]

Yes, he's a man. But Birkin doesn't go for that. I think there's a point there.

I don't mean Birkin is a man, although he is I meant Gerald , you know what kind of man, I mean. No not Birkin - he is different; he would not buy a woman's affections.

As to the Freudian ideas in lawrence. There is no question he was fascinated with Freud and inspired him to think his own ideas through and even wrote a book or two on the sub-conscious. I think Lawrence would consider himself not a Freudian. However I am not knowledgable enough to understand the distinctions between L's own idas and Freud's. The early Lawrence seems very much Freudian to me. The latter Lawrence, from the mid 1920's on to his death, seems much more a Jungian. The middle Lawrence, which Women In Love is, seems fairly distinct. I don't really know. You know I consider it all a crock (sorry if you get mad at me for that ) so I'm not able to really understand nor care about the distinctions. I think it would suffice to say that Lawrence believes in sub-conscious forces that are more powerful than our conscious will and which rule our personalities and actions.

Virgil, good work on this post. You explained it well in relation to the stages of Lawrence's life and writing. He did change or evolve his attitudes and ideas over the years. There are no absolutes here.
I hope manolia reads this and it helps explain things better for her. I am not sure of WIL, either and just where L was in his thinking as far as Freud is concerned. How about "The Rainbow"; did Freud and the Id come into play more than in WIL? He would have been in an earlier stage then, maybe just discovering Freud.

[kandaurov]

Oh, good, Freud has been brought about to this discussion as well! I've accomplished to get through my WiL oral presentation and I did mention a few places in WiL in which where Freud's shadow seems to lurk uncannily

FREUD
• Sexuality and violence as driving forces of the being; propensity to violence in all human beings
• The importance of unconsciousness (omnipresent in the novel), drives, instincts and the being's physic instance
• Notion of the Other (words like 'intruder' and 'outsider' are pervasive)
• "All her surpressed, subconscious fear sprang into being"

Virgil pretty much said everything right. I too don't think DHL was a freudian in the full sense of the notion, but Freud sure had a great influence on his work. And DHL does seem to abandon these ideas a bit later on, I've started Lady Chatterley's Lover and so far I can't see any instance of freudian thought.

[Anthony Furze]

I have only read a poem by Lawrence- "Bavarian Gentians"- which I studied with my students for the O level Literature paper.

Unfortunately Im a very slow reader at present, and I ve only managed Chap 1 of Women in Love. However I was intrigued to find refs from the poem:

the underground (Plutos kingdom) in reference to the miners

a strong emphasis on colours

I did hear a lecture on Lawrence on the radio, on Lawrence and "The Philosophy of the Blood" That too is obvious here in the depth of emotions felt by the characters.

[Virgil]

I have only read a poem by Lawrence- "Bavarian Gentians"- which I studied with my students for the O level Literature paper.

Unfortunately Im a very slow reader at present, and I ve only managed Chap 1 of Women in Love. However I was intrigued to find refs from the poem:

the underground (Plutos kingdom) in reference to the miners

a strong emphasis on colours

I did hear a lecture on Lawrence on the radio, on Lawrence and "The Philosophy of the Blood" That too is obvious here in the depth of emotions felt by the characters.

Those are recurring motifs that go through a lot of Lawrence. That "Bavarian Gentians" poem is excellent!!

I don't mean Birkin is a man, although he is I meant Gerald , you know what kind of man, I mean. No not Birkin - he is different; he would not buy a woman's affections.

No I think you misunderstood me. I meant Gerald is acting like a typical man. I was trying to point out that Birkin does not act that way.

[Janine]

No I think you misunderstood me. I meant Gerald is acting like a typical man. I was trying to point out that Birkin does not act that way.

Hi Virgil, Yes, I think I must have read that wrong. I get your drift. No, Birkin certainly does not fit that norm or the "he is a man" expression. Gerald is what my friend calls a "man's man", I think.
How come you are not further discussing and expounding on 'blood philosophy" with Anthony Furze? He mentions hearing a lecture on it once on the radio. Your thesis would fit right in here. You know more about it than I do. It certainly relates to this book, don't you think?

Anthony, I have a photo of a wonderful statue of Lawrence holding a Gentian in the palm of his hands. I will try to post it here. I found it online the other day. You will all love it. That poem is so lovely.