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Thread: "lifes Nausea And Disgust With Life, Merely Concealed Behind, Masked By..."

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    "lifes Nausea And Disgust With Life, Merely Concealed Behind, Masked By..."

    "When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?"

    -from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.405, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

    "Christianity was from the beginning, essentially and fundamentally, life's nausea and disgust with life, merely concealed behind, masked by, dressed up as, faith in "another" or "better" life."

    -from Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy, p.23, Walter Kaufmann transl.

    "If the Christian dogmas of a revengeful God, universal sinfulness, election by divine grace and the danger of eternal damnation were true, it would be a sign of weak-mindedness and lack of character not to become a priest, apostle or hermit and, in fear and trembling, to work solely on one's own salvation; it would be senseless to lose sight of ones eternal advantage for the sake of temporal comfort. If we may assume that these things are at any rate believed true, then the everyday Christian cuts a miserable figure; he is a man who really cannot count to three, and who precisely on account of his spiritual imbecility does not deserve to be punished so harshly as Christianity promises to punish him."

    -from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.116, R.J. Hollingdale transl.



    Yeah, I enjoy these quotes. I hope they don't offend anyone, in any way. I think they're interesting. Read them on a friends Journal and decided I would post them here. Maybe, hopefully they can start up an interesting coversation .
    He thinks by infection, catching an opinion like a cold - John Ruskin.

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    freaky geeky emily655321's Avatar
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    Kendall, this would make an interesting discussion, but maybe it would be better to start the thread on the Religious Texts board.
    If you had to live with this you'd rather lie than fall.
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    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    I consider myself to be fairly tolerant, but i find these quotes outrageous. It's funny, normally I'm not carried away by this type of nonsense, but Nietszche has an air of malevolence around him that really bothers me. He's managed to insult almost every religion, he was practically the main inspiration for the nazis and IMHO he didn't add anything positive to mankind, only hatred. I don't think this belongs here.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

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    I'm sorry but just because you don't find it interesting - and just because you are offended with it does'nt mean to say it doesn't belong here. Emily, yeah sorry I realised there is a Religious Text area, after I posted it here, my mistake.
    Anyway, back to what I was saying. Everyone is different, just because he didn't do any good - doesn't mean to say his view isn't interesting. Just ignore my posts if you don't wish to read it, I'm sorry you feel this way but I don't.
    He thinks by infection, catching an opinion like a cold - John Ruskin.

    If I wanted to hear the beat of your heart, I'd rip it out and hold it to my ear.

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    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Kendall,you misunderstood me, I didn't mean that he didn't do anything good, I meant that he did evil things. Humanity would have been better off without him.
    That being said, I don't believe that it belongs here because it's offensive to some religions (one of them happens to be the my own), and one of the rules of this forum is to respect all religions. I don't feel respected, so that's why I'm saying that this doesn't belong here. If this was in another area (general lit. , general chat, or book requests) I wouldn't make this claim. I would simply manifest my opposition to his views or just ignore the thread. That's all.
    The fact that you find it interesting is alright, I don't mean to censor you, I just have a personal dislike (and I don't mean a mere literally dislike) for the man. Also, reading the quotes you mention, do you really agree with the logic of his conclusion? it seems to me that he's delusional, at best.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

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    Re: "lifes Nausea And Disgust With Life, Merely Concealed Behind, Masked By..."

    I find these deeply offensive and I am sure no one would be allowed to post something like this about any other religion - Islam for instance, so why should Christianity be treated any differently? Much of what N is saying isn't even true and shows a basic lack of knowledge and understanding of the Christian faith. I thought it was against this forum's rules to insult a person's religion as N does here - via Kendall, who obviously knows they will offend

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    Right in the happy button IWilKikU's Avatar
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    Settle down guys.

    Cris, It was NOT N's intent to create a violent, intolerrant society of elietists who would kill millions. N was before Naziism and never saw it to condone it. He actually wasn't even an antisemite. His message was that we should all try to attain a higher existance, strive to make the Ubermench welcome when the time was right for him to appear, since no one alive is advanced enough (including the mythical Zarathustra) to claim that title. He was once accused of being an antisemite and furiously denied it and left the city where it happened, never to return (sorry, can't remember where that was). Hitler and the Nazis misused his philosophies the same way that Stalin misused Marx's.

    Miranda, N doesn't actually say anything that can be considered "true" or "false" on an objective level here. He's merely stating his opinion of Christianity. He can't prove his philosophy any easier then you can disprove it, so don't be to quick to dub anything he says as "untrue" unless your prepared to prove him wrong.

    As for showing respect, Kendall made it clear that he wasn't trying to offend anyone. He was just saying "here's what N. says about Christianity, what do you guys think about that?" Sorry to put words in your mouth Kendall, but thats how I inturpreted what you were saying. Was I on the right track?
    ...Also baby duck hat would be good for parties.

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    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by IWilKikU
    Settle down guys.
    Cris, It was NOT N's intent to create a violent, intolerrant society of elietists who would kill millions. N was before Naziism and never saw it to condone it. He actually wasn't even an antisemite. His message was that we should all try to attain a higher existance, strive to make the Ubermench welcome when the time was right for him to appear, since no one alive is advanced enough (including the mythical Zarathustra) to claim that title.
    I disagree. I think that if he had seen nazism, he would've loved it. The ubermench is the perfect definition of what the nazis hoped to accoplish by killing what they considered inferior humans and promoting selective breeding (one of their less known horrors).
    Originally posted by IWilKikU
    He was once accused of being an antisemite and furiously denied it and left the city where it happened, never to return (sorry, can't remember where that was). Hitler and the Nazis misused his philosophies the same way that Stalin misused Marx's.
    I don't know about that, but if you're accused of that, of course you'll deny it. Every one of his books have a touch of antisemithism, and don't even get me started on the anti-christ.
    Stalin never misused Marx's ideas, because he never followed them nor planned to do so.
    Originally posted by IWilKikU
    As for showing respect, Kendall made it clear that he wasn't trying to offend anyone. He was just saying "here's what N. says about Christianity, what do you guys think about that?" Sorry to put words in your mouth Kendall, but thats how I inturpreted what you were saying. Was I on the right track?
    It's not that. I don't think he decided to come and say 'hey, I',m gonna attack people's beliefs and offend them', the issue here is starting a discussion on an offensive matter.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

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    Yeah, you said absolutely everything right. Why would I post something to deliberatly upset or offend someone? That's ridiculous.
    It doesn't really matter whether I believe his theories at all, does it. You shouldn't think any less of me if I do, or if I don't. I simply put them up here because *I* think they are interesting, and it is a viewpoint we don't often hear/see. You have every right to be offended and angry, but the fact is I did NOT put it up here to purposely offend anyone. Just because you do not find it interesting (because you are strongly against him) doesn't mean that everyone will be. Even if you are against him ; I still think it makes good topic for conversation.

    p.s. IWilKikU - I am a she, just for future reference.
    He thinks by infection, catching an opinion like a cold - John Ruskin.

    If I wanted to hear the beat of your heart, I'd rip it out and hold it to my ear.

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    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    I don't know if it doesn't matter, maybe it does.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

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    Why should it matter? That's ridiculous. I am not going to say whether I agree with it or not ; and no, just because I am not going to answer doesn't mean I do believe it. It simply means that I do not think that you should think any less of me because I might believe it. It's up to you to decide whether or not you will be civil toward me. It's up to you to decide if I have done this purposely, it's all your opinion.
    But to be blatantly honest, I really don't think that you should take offence to me, because I did not post it thinking "hmm, now lets see who I can offend!" I simply posted it for a reaction, good or bad comments about HIM. Not about why I posted it.
    He thinks by infection, catching an opinion like a cold - John Ruskin.

    If I wanted to hear the beat of your heart, I'd rip it out and hold it to my ear.

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    yes, that's me, your friendly Moderator 💚 Logos's Avatar
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    This forum is here to discuss texts. I don't know if the citations given for these Nietche quotes are correct, but I think it's a valuable topic for people who can remain on topic without resorting to personal attacks.

    I moved this topic here because I think it's relevant to this forum.

    Obviously this may cause emotional reaction but I don't think that was Kendall's intent.

    Agree to disagree if you want if you can keep the personal stuff out of it.
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    freaky geeky emily655321's Avatar
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    That's cool of you, Logos.

    I guess I'm just accustomed to a different religious climate, but I'm frankly shocked at the extreme reactions to the Nietzsche quotations. I think he makes a couple good points. As far as I can see, his own opinion of the religion isn't as extreme as these statements, but are rather merely the basis for what are a form of Devil's Advocate discussion (LOL not literally, of course, which is the point I'm trying to make). Merely expressing the frustration of a person living in a world whose cogs, from morning to evening, are made, run, and oiled by one world philosophy, when he himself feels deeply that it is untrue. I hear two distinct questions he asks the reader to ask themselves: 1) What is it inside people that inspires faith in these stories they repeat, because I (Nietzsche) don't have that thing; how do they justify believing so strongly in something which is impossible to prove, and seems to me ludicrous?... and 2) Since Christians and Christian dogma are so strict and judgmental of how their neighbors lead their lives, telling them they are ever in danger of damnation, how do so many justify to themselves the frivolous and indulgent ways they live their lives?

    I didn't hear anything antisemitic, or anything against Christ or any other founding member of the religion. It seems to me he is merely expressing frustration with the Christian followers he had observed around him up till that point in his life.
    If you had to live with this you'd rather lie than fall.
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    L'artiste est morte crisaor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kendall
    Why should it matter? That's ridiculous. I am not going to say whether I agree with it or not ; and no, just because I am not going to answer doesn't mean I do believe it. It simply means that I do not think that you should think any less of me because I might believe it. It's up to you to decide whether or not you will be civil toward me. It's up to you to decide if I have done this purposely, it's all your opinion.
    I have a tendency to give people less value if I understand that they support ideas that I find idiotic and/or inhuman. I think everyone does this in a certain degree. This doesn't mean that I won't be civil, that depends on other factors. So far, I don't think that I've disrespected you.
    Originally posted by Kendall
    But to be blatantly honest, I really don't think that you should take offence to me, because I did not post it thinking "hmm, now lets see who I can offend!" I simply posted it for a reaction, good or bad comments about HIM. Not about why I posted it.
    I'm not offended by you, by your person, but of the things you posted. It seems to me that saying if you agree or not with what you posted would be a simple act of responsability, as I can't say anything and then go 'Someone else said it, I'm not necessarily in favour'. Of course, you don't have to do this. If you wanted a reaction, you got it. This is mine.
    Originally posted by Logos
    This forum is here to discuss texts. I don't know if the citations given for these Nietche quotes are correct, but I think it's a valuable topic for people who can remain on topic without resorting to personal attacks.
    I moved this topic here because I think it's relevant to this forum.
    It's funny. Since I'm a member of this forum, I've had several of my posts/threads censored and/or deleted because of much lesser stuff than this, and most of the times, I was simply expressing the truth, but it happened that 'it was offensive for other people'. It's not about the way you moderate the forums, but I don't like this order of things. Consider this my last post in this particular thread.
    Ningún hombre llega a ser lo que es por lo que escribe, sino por lo que lee.
    - Jorge Luis Borges

  15. #15
    Ever Benevolent and Wise
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    Context ...

    It's interesting if you read any biographical information about Nietzsche, and have a grasp of his `Return of the Same' or `Will to Power' theory.

    I usually like to have a bit of background on someone before I start to read them. It gives me some insight into their perspective and philosophy.

    See, I've read some of his work, I read these quotes of his and I see the responses here and I have to say I can understand some of his frustration with Christianity ...

    Nietzsche was a philosopher, and I'm sure his life-time sufferings from myriad maladies allowed him the existential self-introspection needed to be one.

    While I rarely venture into religious discussion, in these quotes I see him expressing his opinions about inconsistencies and dareIsay hypocrisy which have certainly crossed my mind at times. He uses highly emotive language which is shocking to some, reassuring to some, that they're not the only ones who feel this way. There are many elements to Christianity that to me forebode feelings of guilt and exclusion if one does not conform and follow suit.

    Unfortunately Nietzsche later went insane and a lot of his works were discredited because of this.

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