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Thread: Can a Christian be a Buddhist? Vice-versa?

  1. #151
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I am sorry that you thought I am such a person as would want to control others and accept no argument.



    It has no more existence than the dreams you dreamt last night.
    No, I didn't mean that Nikolai. My point is that how can truth be discussed and approached when it is rareified out of experience. The end point is the aim, but I think ordinary beings like myself need the steps towards it.

    You've got me thinking on this thread, and I hope it doeasn't come across brusquely. If it does, then it's my gears cranking.

    I need to think about the dream thing.

  2. #152
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    No, I didn't mean that Nikolai. My point is that how can truth be discussed and approached when it is rareified out of experience. The end point is the aim, but I think ordinary beings like myself need the steps towards it.

    You've got me thinking on this thread, and I hope it doeasn't come across brusquely. If it does, then it's my gears cranking.

    I need to think about the dream thing.
    No it's no problem, likewise I am apprehensive that I may come off that way to you. You are the first person I have met who cares very much about Buddhism and I am very glad we can discuss on here. I just hope I don't discourage you any by being too argumentative.

    I don't think it's a waste of time...

    Actually one point I wanted to make earlier - my view of enlightenment is sort of understanding a higher consciousness (divine, if you will)... the transcendent harmony of all that exists... as Swami Vivekananda said, "

    As soon as you know the voice and understand what it is, the whole scene changes. The same world which was the ghastly battlefield of maya is now changed into something good and beautiful."

    That is really my ideal.

    Now, I worship freely with Sufis and Christians and Hindus as well as practice with Buddhists. I am glad to discuss my reasons for this, and I don't mind defending myself. What I mean is that even though we may argue; I know that your and my ideal are not different - it is simply truth. And if I may assume, then I am guessing your idea of truth is similar - peace, bliss, knowledge ...

    Actually I was an atheist when I was younger, and yet Buddhism finally broke the hold, and made me realize that there was more to reality than atheism would allow... at that point I realized that there was a reality or a source of reality which was more than just our senses. It's a philosophical type of thing. The main question for life is "What is reality?" Atheists usually do not answer this very well because they have the common difficulty, as you know, or necessity, of doing it all themselves - reinventing the wheel, as it were.

    Well, now I understand the value of traditional knowledge passed on through lineages. But I also now know the value of other mystics... I cannot in a million years discount Rumi, who understood the ideal of love as deeply as anyone perhaps... nor of Sri Aurobindo, etc., - to me they are on an equal plane as Jetsun Milarepa...

  3. #153
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    On the contrary, it has been good for me to think about the issues here. I attend a class weekly, and we will be developing into a study group in a few months, but with work pressure - it's difficult to find the time to practice.

    I'm glad you've found practices that you like and are happy with.In your previous postings I thought I read a few Hindu references. It's an interesting mix, and if it works for you then that's great. I feel as though I've been dogmatic on this thread, but I felt that I could contribute an orthodox buddhist view. At the end of the day, individual freedom to choose is important. You forge your own way.

    I was brought up virtually an atheist with no guidance from my parents, which turned out to be the best for me. It made me go looking.

    I always felt that science did not hold it all as a kid, and reflecting back I found Buddhist ideas all over the place before I'd heard about the religion. When I was 9 I read about reincarnation and it just seemed to click. I was attracted to the idea, and it made sense. That's the thing about reincarnation - it adds some kind of background sense to our preferences and chosen paths. I think you made a similar point in one of your posts.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    Does a religion have to be enforced to be authoritative? If you want a religion that enforces, and is authoritative, you wouldn't have to look far.

    As for being a Christian or Buddhist - they ars so different, as to be mutually exclusive due to the aims, methods and goals.

    I think one of the strengths of Buddhism and Christianity is that a person can choose to be either. Not both, though that doesn't mean there isn't common ground in charity, compassion etc.
    When the Catholic Church aligned with the aristocracy, it had authority to administer and was able to enforce the religion. There is nothing like that happening today, although it might start up again. It might be happening, but not openly. There isn't much power in those positions, but there used to be. Without that mix, it doesn't matter what religion you study. You can chose any one. The Gods are silent. It is a lot of work for nothing.

    I myself do read or listen to the Bible, and spend some time with it, but it is fairly hard to get excited about it. Back when the Church had authority, it was a big deal. You could get ahead by being up on this God and the war for the holy grail or whatever.

  5. #155
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    It has no more existence than the dreams you dreamt last night.

    I've been thinking about the dream analogy for Samsara.

    Yes you are correct to say this, but not because both are a nothingness.

    Both are a dependent reality. A dream is dependent upon the mind of the dreamer. Also, whilst in the dream state, they experience the dream as real. If there is suffering, they experience suffering. The dream will disappear once the dreamer wakes, and this is why it is used as an analogy for Samsara.

    In a similar way Samsara is not a nothingness, but is also a dependant reality. It also dpends upon minds and Karma. Of course it is not easy to wake up from Samsara.

    The assertion that Samsara is a nothingness could logically lead someone to conclude that it doesn't matter what you do if it is nothing. This is a misconception as Samsara is where karma is created. It is a reality where suffering is experienced. Therefore it is an existing reality, but one that does not exist without depending upon the minds of beings. Realising Enlightenment is analogous to waking up from a dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I am sorry that you thought I am such a person as would want to control others and accept no argument.



    It has no more existence than the dreams you dreamt last night.






    It does not matter whether I have spent time trying to reconcile them or you have spent time trying to keep them separate. Perhaps neither was helpful. What is helpful is directing our thoughts, words and actions toward truth, by our practice. Spiritual masters of all religions, genuine ones, are alike in quality. They have similar qualities of faith, compassion, joy, love; they show relentless patience and they never give up hope. They are always working to cultivate goodness and love, and to generate peace and good merits. These are not specific to any religion but universal to all, and they extend also to any philosopher worth his salt.



    I met a monk, Geshe Dorje, who's an assistant to the Dalai Lama. And in our conversation he said, "if I ever find something inconceivable, then I will give up my robes and no longer be a Buddhist." But then later I found a Buddhist text actually called "Entry into the Inconceivable."



    Don't think that a Sufi or a Christian or Jew or Hindu cannot reach the highest enlightenment - that is, peace, bliss, knowledge. Emerson said... "There are thoughts which find us young and keep us young."

    Truth is one, we merely call it by different names. If you see Truth, then you won't take the divisions so seriously. And you know the lovers of God - Jesus, Rumi, etc... I bet they would get on well with the more famous Buddhist masters.
    I agree that Spiritual Masters appear to have similar qualities, but they wouldn't say you could achieve what they have by a mix and match approach. The highest examples in a religion demonstrate an adherence to that religion's practice, and so belie the argument that you can be this and that.

    I'm not sue what your point about Geshe Dorje is. A sentence uttered by him and a book title do not mean that he would find the book inconceivable.

    As for religious leaders getting on, I'm sure they would, but you can't draw a conclusion about their attainments from this.

  6. #156
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    When you wake up from a dream - sometimes you know you are dreaming, but if you dream and you think it's real - then you say, whether it was a good or bad dream, "Oh, that wasn't real." Keep thinking about it. If you wake up from the dream of Maya (or samsara) you will then realize, "Oh, it wasn't real." That state of self-realization, which many saints for example Hindus and Sufis and Taoists, etc. - whoever - but universally they have said the same thing, which is they reached a place where they realized they were never bound... it does not matter whether Christian or Buddhist or any other - you can practice with people from any place in the world and find happiness, love, joy, spiritual growth, insight - and that deep connection, that deep peace and love - that is what is real - not your bickerings over the divisions and boundaries of religions. Those are just illusions upon illusion.

    And it is true that mystics - again, universally - have said the same thing: no matter what, no matter what, there is never any reason to worry... there is a truth of infinite joyousness, serenity, bliss, peace, love... which merely begs to be sung... and it states that everything is nothing... but those who have ever glimpsed this... they are just people... normal people. Perhaps slightly healthier or sharper than others. But they know that all life is a balance. Anyway, those who glimpsed the truth of non-duality, they do not act as though nothing matters...

    It is one of those paradoxes, Paul, which you can't understand just by linear (or Western logic) thinking. It is true that nothing matters on one hand - but on the other hand, everything matters greatly. But there are infinite possible perspectives - none of them is absolutely true, yet all have their validity.

    What's necessary to find enlightenment is first an aspiration... faith... and that faith itself completely transforms us, and it is very near to enlightenment. And it is not particular to Buddhism, nor to Christianity ---- any more than the air we breathe is. Why would the infinite spirit be for one and not for another? You simply say it doesn't work to mix and match but you are not having an open mind. If you were as rigid from the beginning, you would never have gotten to Buddhism in the first place. So don't think that only one view in Buddhism is correct, nor think that only Buddhism is worthwhile. Don't have any fixed assumptions!

    Sorry to go back and forth -- but back to the issue of what is nothingness, or emptiness, and what is form - the truth is, karma is illusion also. Karma doesn't exist. One one level it does but on another level it doesn't.

    Don't necessarily think so much that you are an ordinary person, either. You see, actually it is wrong to think you're an ordinary, limited, person. That is one view - but in reality you are boundless, you are connected to the very source of existence. You are one with the universe. Society is in something like a mass delusion -- everyone is reinforcing the illusion that we are separate from the universe. Now don't take this as a criticism, I am not saying they are bad or weak or unhealthy or anything. There are people who are far better than I am who are still under that illusion. But even the very best of our society do not know where they truly stand, they do not know their source.

    What I'm saying is that in truth, we are all, every one of us, one with the universe. But in illusion we think we are not. We think we're separate. Actually there is only One Existence. God exists, an infinite Being, and yet has divided into innumerable forms. But all duality is an illusion - being bound, that is an illusion. Form, that is emptiness.

    But you don't believe in God. I know.

    Well, let me tell you this. It may seem that we are very far separate from Truth, let us say. And it is true, seemingly. But actually we are separated by nothing. Nothing separates us from Truth - and further, lastly, we were never separate, and we were never bound. So to say that everything is nothing, and nothing is everything, or in other words, that form is emptiness and emptiness is form; that means, that in relation to the Truth - which we are - nothing else exists. Nothing. There is nothing in relation to Truth, which is infinite joy, peace, love, etc.... - it is that which says, "There is nothing separate between me and everything."

    And if you disagree, I cannot convince you nor do I really care. May you have peace and happiness, and may you come to know your source. Peace.

    If what I have said seems unfamiliar or incomprehensible to you, I apologize. Do not think I am a person of divided loyalty; I am telling you what I see to be true...

    Strength is the greatest virtue... we must give undivided and unalloyed effort to become strong, healthy...

    but don't limit yourself, man. That's all I can say. Don't cut yourself off from Rumi, Sri Aurobindo... others...whoever else you find.

  7. #157
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Yes it is true that what we say matters... on this plane. On this plane most of us are bound by thoughts and forms and it takes a long while before we see the boundless and formless Truth. And so there are teachings which guide us, to elevate us... and I am not saying that it is okay to commit wrongs, aparadhas, and I am not saying that there's no such thing as anarthas (bad habits). But I am saying that the truth is that everything is light... every form is a form of light. True Buddhists don't say it in the same way, although Lama Surya Das said the same thing, that the secret is that even these shadows are actually light...

    So I admit - when people are lazy, when they curse - when they say things out of ignorance - of course all of this keeps them in bondage, keeps them in illusion, and keeps them from truth. But, the thing is, all bondage is illusion, all form is illusion, karma is nothingness - your source is your true self - forget that it does not go in accord with something you thought was true. Your source is your true self. How can you be separate from your source? Your source is you. And your source is never bound by anything...

    People who say that Buddhists and Christians are different do not understand, they have never attained God. God is the source of everything... anyone can realize God. Religion is not necessary - nor is the lack of religion necessary. Religion can work if it's done sincerely. Then someone can realize God through religion. But someone can also realize God without religion. Both are true and they are not contradictory.

    And before you go off saying that Buddhists don't believe in God - forget the word God and just replace it with, "The absolute ground of reality."

  8. #158
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    I'm familiar with the term Ground of Being as a description of God, rather than the personal God for whom humans are his image. I think your use of the term God may be neither Christian nor Buddhist, but a kind of amalgam of the two. I don't think this is useful.

    The point of Buddhism is to provide the tools to attain Elightenment. It posits an explanation as to what Enlightenment is, and it sets out the qualities needed to be developed in order to progress to that point in the future. The most important aspect is to encourage a focus upon useful concepts, and test them out through reflection and meditation.

    I wouldn't presume to tell you what is a good practice for your own path or comment on your chosen way, but I have met people who have adopted a catch all type philosophy that encompassed elements of a lot of religions. In there were new age ideas - usually in the 90's - and they then tried to make sense of it all and resolve it into their path. I don't have the wisdom or knowledge to do that, and suspect that is the case for most ordinary people.

    It may be true that we are seperated by nothing from the truth. What does that mesn to me though? Not much. It doesn't help me. What Buddhism says to me is that Enlightenment is a moment away, but I will not get to that moment without a systematic practice. I believe this because why would my teachers lie to me? The whole reason that the teachings were formulated by the Buddha was because sentient beings need teaching and guidance to achieve it.

    For the reasons I have put above, neither Emptiness nor Samsara is nothingness. I know you are quoting from The Heart Sutra but you are under a misconception about these. Form is Empty - refers to a lack of inherent existence. It depends upon causes and conditions. It has no existence from it's own side, meaning that it cannot exist independant of causes.

    I don't know what Christians make of Enlightenment. If I were a Christian I would be tempted to challenge this as relevant to a Christian's practice. As a Buddhist, I have Teachers descriptions of what Enlightenment is, and it bears little relation to the Christian relation to God.

    I can understand the impulse that wants to unite people and faiths by drawing together common threads in each and a saying that the goal is the same. I don't feel the need to do this. I am very happy for a Christian to practice their faith, and to agree to disagree. There lies true tolerance. I fundamentally disagree with what Christians base their faith on, but that is no barrier to me appreciating the good work done by Christian organisations. I expct the same kind of tolerance back too, and I get it.

  9. #159
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    I will state my main point which you may have missed because I didn't really form my post with it as the central idea: if you always had such a certain view of how things are, you would never have taken up Buddhism in the first place.

    And Paul, my friend, it is not me but you who have a misconception of what is emptiness and what is form. You should only speak from experience. I am speaking from experience, and I saw Buddha, felt the supreme truth as my own being. What I am telling you is true about Buddhism - when you attain enlightenment, you realize that you are also a Buddha, and that you also can turn the wheel of Dharma. What I know is that the source of you, of anyone, is their true self - their true self is pure love. This is true of me, you, and anyone who reads this. I don't care if my saying this, that I saw God, Buddha, the supreme truth, the infinite, the source - I don't care if that means someone will not like me. I know it's true. I know that the essence of everything is pure love - infinite peace, bliss, and knowledge. And it is not separate from Buddhist's view of truth - if they see correctly. There is only one reality. And you can realize that reality, all you have to do is be fearless. You don't have to follow any rites. You can chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo just as well as you can chant Allah, or Rama, or Ana B'Koach.

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    I don't believe so....

    From my limited experience Buddhism is about finding meaning inside yourself, and making your meaning to life. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.....)

    However, Christianity asserts that there is no meaning outside of God... thus no meaning in "finding meaning in yourself", no meaning in "meditation"... The list goes on and on.

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. -John 14:6

  11. #161
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I will state my main point which you may have missed because I didn't really form my post with it as the central idea: if you always had such a certain view of how things are, you would never have taken up Buddhism in the first place.

    And Paul, my friend, it is not me but you who have a misconception of what is emptiness and what is form. You should only speak from experience. I am speaking from experience, and I saw Buddha, felt the supreme truth as my own being. What I am telling you is true about Buddhism - when you attain enlightenment, you realize that you are also a Buddha, and that you also can turn the wheel of Dharma. What I know is that the source of you, of anyone, is their true self - their true self is pure love. This is true of me, you, and anyone who reads this. I don't care if my saying this, that I saw God, Buddha, the supreme truth, the infinite, the source - I don't care if that means someone will not like me. I know it's true. I know that the essence of everything is pure love - infinite peace, bliss, and knowledge. And it is not separate from Buddhist's view of truth - if they see correctly. There is only one reality. And you can realize that reality, all you have to do is be fearless. You don't have to follow any rites. You can chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo just as well as you can chant Allah, or Rama, or Ana B'Koach.
    With all rspect Nikolai, I have to go with my teachers on this.
    Last edited by Paulclem; 02-05-2010 at 12:51 PM.

  12. #162
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    You know when I was in school we played a game, the teachers there showed us, which was illustrative: there is a message, and one person passes it on to another, and that person tells what they heard, and so on, and by the time it goes through even a short number of people, it becomes incredibly garbled.

    I would just say try not to limit yourself! Everything in the world has a purpose. Not to mention everything in Buddhism. I will just suggest, if you are going to discard the wisdom of all religions but Buddhism, then at least learn everything you can from Buddhism. Don't discount Amitabha, the Buddha of Infinite Light, or Bhaisajya Guru, the Medicine Buddha, or any Buddha or Bodhisattva. Just think... you know in your life the people you most like, because they have so many good qualities... well Buddhas are even better than that. So don't turn your nose up at them! And good luck, and may you one day know that infinite peace is true, and that infinite light, infinite joy, that is also real..
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 02-05-2010 at 05:35 PM.

  13. #163
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    You know when I was in school we played a game, the teachers there showed us, which was illustrative: there is a message, and one person passes it on to another, and that person tells what they heard, and so on, and by the time it goes through even a short number of people, it becomes incredibly garbled.

    Paul, there's no one alive today who's as good as Mila. So just follow him. If Buddhism is enough for you then that's fine, but keep an eye out for dogmatic thinking. When rules become so important you are focused mainly on following them, then you have stopped your progress.
    Are you suggsting that The Buddha's teachings are garbled?

    Milarepa wrote the 100,000 Songs, which are fantastic, but they are not a systematic path. As a Yogi, his way of life is tremedously difficult to follow, particularly in the modern world, and especially if you have commitments.

    My main point is that reading this, practising that, adhering to another aspect of a religion is not enough to realise Enlightenment for an ordinary person. I think I've said this before.

    We seem to have come to an impasse. I will be following my teacher's guidance, because I am a Buddhist. I would't presume to describe the path you have taken, but your posts indicate a different way to The Buddha's. That's not a problem.

  14. #164
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    Are you suggsting that The Buddha's teachings are garbled?

    Milarepa wrote the 100,000 Songs, which are fantastic, but they are not a systematic path. As a Yogi, his way of life is tremedously difficult to follow, particularly in the modern world, and especially if you have commitments.

    My main point is that reading this, practising that, adhering to another aspect of a religion is not enough to realise Enlightenment for an ordinary person. I think I've said this before.

    We seem to have come to an impasse. I will be following my teacher's guidance, because I am a Buddhist. I would't presume to describe the path you have taken, but your posts indicate a different way to The Buddha's. That's not a problem.
    Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha.

    Paul my way is not different from Buddha's way. I am Buddha - you are too. But when I tell you that reality is infinite light you think I am telling you to go back to sleep. I'm not - don't! Wake up!

    Cheerio.

    All you need is fearlessness.. all weakness and ignorance comes from fear. But if you attain fearlessness, through renunciation, you have no weakness...
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 02-05-2010 at 06:39 PM.

  15. #165
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    The Buddha's way is quite specific.

    The other religions are too, and have not merged over 2 millennia. That's why there are few Buddho - Christans, or Christiano-Hindus. It is not useful. Someone who tries to be so, is not a Buddhist, and is not a Christian. They are something else.
    Last edited by Paulclem; 02-05-2010 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Lumps for knuckles

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