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Thread: Cafe Philosophy

  1. #1
    Cafe Philosopher
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    Cafe Philosophy

    Hi,
    Cafe Philosophy is a cafe publication, distributed free to cafes in Central Auckland, NZ.
    A topical subject is the question of belief and desire. I mean one's personal beliefs and exactly how they originate. Like, do you consciously and rationally decide upon a belief or is it something that it happens partly unconsciously? A belief has to be supported by other reasonable facts and if these facts are found to be wrong, would the belief change? Can other people influence your beliefs? Can subsequent events change earlier held beliefs?

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    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cafe Rob View Post
    Hi,
    Cafe Philosophy is a cafe publication, distributed free to cafes in Central Auckland, NZ.
    A topical subject is the question of belief and desire. I mean one's personal beliefs and exactly how they originate. Like, do you consciously and rationally decide upon a belief or is it something that it happens partly unconsciously? A belief has to be supported by other reasonable facts and if these facts are found to be wrong, would the belief change? Can other people influence your beliefs? Can subsequent events change earlier held beliefs?
    Define Belief.
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  3. #3
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    Nice poem and it is quite clear in it's meaning. Heaven, and Hell are simply a creation of the mind along with everything else. Life in general is an illusion, an emptiness in much the same way as any person. There is no permanency anywhere, everything changing. An empty nothingness only given any meaning by human imagination. However behind it all there seems to be a re-juvenating life-force that forever re-news everything, i.e. the changing seasons, birth and death. Why it all happens as it does is beyond imagination for there seems to be no reason for any of it.

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    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cafe Rob View Post
    Nice poem and it is quite clear in it's meaning. Heaven, and Hell are simply a creation of the mind along with everything else. Life in general is an illusion, an emptiness in much the same way as any person. There is no permanency anywhere, everything changing. An empty nothingness only given any meaning by human imagination. However behind it all there seems to be a re-juvenating life-force that forever re-news everything, i.e. the changing seasons, birth and death. Why it all happens as it does is beyond imagination for there seems to be no reason for any of it.
    You did not answer my question ;-)
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  5. #5
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    What you believe really governs your actions and belief may not line up with reality. As Kant explains, the mind constitutes the world around us, it is never passive but active. What anyone believes is dependent on their intellectual ability, their intellect and reason and their day to day life experiences and who they are. Although I would also say that a lot of what a person beleives is not known to them. We do not-'know ourselves.' Like the fictional characters Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde at one moment we may be calm, placid, benevolent and reasonable and then later we may feel the complete opposite of this, violent, destructive even murderous. As Schopenhauer rightly said, 'reason is a slave of the passions.'
    Belief really, is linked to desire and need because when we want something we justify it with a belief. Feelings of lonleliness and insecurity lead to a need for God, or maybe alcohol or drugs. The love we have for another person is the passion and the need we feel for them. Philosophy satisfies a need for understanding ourselves. What we believe changes as time passes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cafe Rob View Post
    What you believe really governs your actions and belief may not line up with reality.
    So there two kinds of beliefs - one that lines up with reality and other isn't?

    What are these?

    As Kant explains, the mind constitutes the world around us, it is never passive but active.
    Do we always have to use other people's thinking? Should we not be Thinking For Ourselves?
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  7. #7
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    A belief should be verifiable or grounded in reality, I mean scientifically verifiable in the 'here and now.'
    We should think for ourselves, form our own conclusions, but many people, the majority, would prefer to let others think for them because they have neither the time nor inclination to ponder the subject themselves.

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    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cafe Rob View Post
    A belief should be verifiable or grounded in reality, I mean scientifically verifiable in the 'here and now.'
    But many billions live their life by the unverifiable beliefs.

    What does that say about the nature of human beings?
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  9. #9
    Perhaps an island.... Moira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cafe Rob View Post
    What you believe really governs your actions and belief may not line up with reality. As Kant explains, the mind constitutes the world around us, it is never passive but active. What anyone believes is dependent on their intellectual ability, their intellect and reason and their day to day life experiences and who they are. Although I would also say that a lot of what a person beleives is not known to them. We do not-'know ourselves.' Like the fictional characters Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde at one moment we may be calm, placid, benevolent and reasonable and then later we may feel the complete opposite of this, violent, destructive even murderous. As Schopenhauer rightly said, 'reason is a slave of the passions.'
    Belief really, is linked to desire and need because when we want something we justify it with a belief. Feelings of lonleliness and insecurity lead to a need for God, or maybe alcohol or drugs. The love we have for another person is the passion and the need we feel for them. Philosophy satisfies a need for understanding ourselves. What we believe changes as time passes.
    It does make sense ..... to me at least, because i agree with what you've said and you've put it very well.

    The mind does constitute the world around us and when it comes to religion i think we believe what seems plausible to us rather than what we are taught to believe because our intellect filters the information and decides what is plausible and what is not.

    We don't know ourselves entirely because we did not experience everything, and usually we react differently to a certain experience (what i mean is that we can think about a situation and think we would react in a certain way but when that really happens we discover we did not have the reaction we expected to have ... does that make sense? did it happen to you?), and we learn something new about ourselves with every new experience.

    Believes change in time because we experience new things and our needs change and it's a whole process that goes on forever......

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    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moira View Post
    we learn something new about ourselves with every new experience.
    Is very much so.

    But is there anything we learn that does not require experience?
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  11. #11
    Perhaps an island.... Moira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lote-Tree View Post
    Is very much so.

    But is there anything we learn that does not require experience?
    I don't really understand your question, give me an example or explain some more ....

    I guess it depends on how you define 'experience'.
    There are physical, mental, emotional and spiritual experiences.

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    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moira View Post
    I don't really understand your question, give me an example or explain some more ....

    I guess it depends on how you define 'experience'.
    There are physical, mental, emotional and spiritual experiences.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning

    There are many things we learn but don't experience them...?
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  13. #13
    Perhaps an island.... Moira's Avatar
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    We do not experience them directly you mean.....

    There are a lot of things we learn without being directly involved. We learn by observing, reflecting upon, etc .....

  14. #14
    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moira View Post
    We do not experience them directly you mean.....
    Yes. Very much so :-)
    I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
    Some letter of that After-life to spell:
    And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
    And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell :"


    Blog: Rubaiyats of Lote-Tree and Poetry and Tales

  15. #15
    Perhaps an island.... Moira's Avatar
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    Well, you do not say much don't you?

    Yes, i've already said that i believe we learn many things by observing, reflecting upon, reading about, etc ....... because it is not possible to experience everything ourselves directly.

    What are your thoughts on this subject? Since you started it :P ......

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