Most misrepresented Victorian?

[morticia]

This is the first time I've done anything like this so if I get the protocols wrong forgive me.

Am I the only one who fails to find anything racist in Kiplings writing? That again and again he demonstrates his respect for other races?

I know he was paternalistic - but he was a product of his times.

If anyone is interested in discussing this I can support my views.

I'll check back in from time to time

Blessed be.

[mono]

Hello, morticia, welcome to the forum.
Unfortunately, studying Rudyard Kipling does not seem my strongest area, I think researching into his history seems necessary. Besides his incredible literature, he advocated much for equal rights among the English and citizens of India, which one can see in poems like "The White Man's Burden." I believe he first lived in India, born and raised, then moved to England with his family at an early age, which probably created much reverence in him for both cultures, desiring peace between the two, then, lands in much trouble.
Ironically, looking up years of birth for Kipling (1865-1936), he lived during a very close time to Mahatma Mohandes K. Gandhi (1869-1948) - and they both allegedly served in the Boer War in South Africa. Gandhi also lived and received schooling in England for some time, and, according to his biography by Louis Fischer, encountered an overwhelming amount of racism; so, morticia, that you mentioned Kipling seeming very different from his fellow Victorians sounds very correct - he desired much peace, and succeeded partially, as much of the desire of control of India by England much have seemed nearly impossible to contain. Regardless, his heart remained in both England and India, striving only for peace and making incredible literature.

[soupy1957]

Hi folks,
I'm ashamed to say that I only began reading Rudyard Kiplings' works just within the last year, even though I am just about to turn 50.
I remember watching "The Jungle Book" Disney film as a child, but didn't know who the author of the story was.
Recently I had heard that some folks think of RK as being "racist" but I don't see it. Having picked up a "Definitive Edition" of his poetry, I find that his understanding of the Morals of God as relates to mankind, to be quite to the contrary.
I'm glad this Forum exsists, as I'll be buying "Kim" or perhaps another work of RK's soon, and I'm hoping that as I go forward in my new found love for RK that I can make good use of this Forum with all of you, for talking about the most current "read" and/or working through any issues I have with it.
Best Regards,
Soupy1957

[Nightshade]

I suppose I know where the rasist angle comes from its in a couple of the books but I cant remeber the names off the top of my head anyway in Captain couragous there is somthing about the black cook which while it isnt exactly rasist is most definetly un PC and in Kim he says somthing about filthy muslim Pigs or somthing like that its to do with the annymosity between the hindoos and the muslims in India. Also in that book there is this big deal made because it turns out kim isnt a native but white.
Ohh i remeber its the "how the Leopard got its spots" story that is suppose to be rasist isnt it??

[soupy1957]

Nightshade,
Subjective perspective is what we are prone to after all, eh Nightshade?! I suppose if someone were preceiving that PK were a racist, they themselves might be thinking that way because they are sensitive to that possibility in people.
I just found it interesting that the first time I mentioned to someone that I was reading Kipling, they reached into their mental file cabinet and pulled out a reference card that apparently got filed under "racist."
Certainly we don't base our evaluations of people and things soley on the opinion of one, but it does become part of the fabric of the evaluation until we are able to get a more collective view from a lot of different angles.
As to my question in my earlier post: putting aside "The Jungle Book" just for a bit, ........where do YOU recommend I start, now that I'm looking into PK's short stories and novels? Any particular title that you think is a better starting point than another? (I realize again that this is asking for subjectivism, but alas that is all we have, eh?!
Regards,
Soupy1957

[Nightshade]

The just so stories were my introduction to kipling great start, Im afraid I havent actually read that much err Kim was alright if I rembere correctly so was Captain Courageous or just read some of his poems like the female of the species and Common form.
acttually there is enough room to fit comon form here:
If any question why we we died;
Tell them because our fathers lied.

[soupy1957]

Recently, my wife found on a "free" table, what I believe to be a 1956 Doubleday release of "Kipling" (subtitle: "A collection of his short stories and poems;Illustrated), by John Beecroft, ISBN: 56-6647.
Since I had not read any of his short stories, I received this rather dusty and somewhat weatherworn dustcovered hardcover with some measure of glee.
I have read perhaps 3 or 4 short stories at this point from it; in particular are "The Finest Story In The World," and "A Matter of Fact," and "Beyond the Pale," and "A Bank Fraud."
Great stuff, I must say!! What I should like to do now, is to see if I can find older editions of single stories, so off I go to "Amazon.com" to see what is out there.
Being a resident of Connecticut, only an hour South of Brattleboro, Vermont where Kipling had built a home which is now a museum, I am ashamed to say that I had not known of its exsistance until recently, and may take a "day trip" to see it, even this very afternoon.
I'll be sure and report what I have found, once the "trip" is done.
Thanks for your responses......
Soupy1957

[soupy1957]

Oh, by the way.......I'm reading through a number of RK's (Rudyard Kipling, for those of you reading this who are not normally reading this string), "Short Stories" and I happen to have just started, "At The Pits Mouth."
I didn't expect to get hung up on the FIRST LINE of a story, but I did. Kipling speaks of a character called "Tertium Quid." So I looked up the words in the dictionary and other than the definitions for "Quid" which didn't seem to fit, I'm lost to determine why the name "Tertium Quid" was used at all.
It appeared that he was giving us a description of the person, moreso than the proper name, for he says, "........and a Tertium Quid."
Can someone shed some light on "who" or "what" is a "Tertium Quid?"


Regards,
Soupy1957

[mono]

Oh, by the way.......I'm reading through a number of RK's (Rudyard Kipling, for those of you reading this who are not normally reading this string), "Short Stories" and I happen to have just started, "At The Pits Mouth."
I didn't expect to get hung up on the FIRST LINE of a story, but I did. Kipling speaks of a character called "Tertium Quid." So I looked up the words in the dictionary and other than the definitions for "Quid" which didn't seem to fit, I'm lost to determine why the name "Tertium Quid" was used at all.
It appeared that he was giving us a description of the person, moreso than the proper name, for he says, "........and a Tertium Quid."
Can someone shed some light on "who" or "what" is a "Tertium Quid?"

Since Latin has never seemed very user-friendly (or speaker-friendly) to me, I turned to my Latin & English dictionary, and found the following results:

tertium = for the third time
quid = how or why

In the Kipling book, it probably really depends on the context of the phrase "tertium quid," but I hope this makes it easier to understand. Perhaps the main character or narrator described this particular character as questioned for a third time - I have no idea without reading the whole sentence or paragraph myself.
Good luck!

[morticia]

This might be a bit late Soupy, but some ideas - "Plain Tales from the Hills" as an intro to the short stories. If there are small grandkids "The Just So Stories", my own favourites which still get reread semiannually "Puck of Pooks Hill" and "Rewards and Fairies". If you're having trouble finding things give your local librarian Hell. There are some on the net but I need the comfort of paper to read for enjoyment, (a fire, glass of wine etc. etc.)

Thanks for taking the time to write, people.

To those in the USA, I hope all your loved ones are safe.

[GTR done]

Morticia, some people in the U.S. have said that Mark Twain is racist for his writings in "Huckleberry Finn", etc.

Both R.K. & M.T. were reporters first. Their writings may be fiction, but they report the human condition as they knew it in their lives.

I find both are such wonderful reading because of the truth in the baseness of many humans, but the transendent hope that we can all grow beyond our upbringing and circumstances.

Writing the word 'nigger' or 'fuzzy wuzzy' does not make you a racist, especially in the context of both writers works. Also read Twain's 'Pudding Head Wilson' to find a great read, and a thought provoking look at nature vs. nurture.

I think most people who say 'racist' stop reading (or thinking) at the first objectionable word. Too bad.

[samjon]

I agree entirely. I think that RK is considered a racist by many acadeimcs nowadays because he doesn't say that the British had no right to an Empire and had no business governing parts of India, South Africa, and so on. You are absolutely correct that, for his time, he was forward thinking in considering members of other races--particularly the colonized--to be as individuals just as good, if not better, than many who ruled them. Remember the refrain of "Gunga Din": "Though we kicked you and we flayed you / By the living God that made you / You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din."

By the way, I think Kipling the greatest underrated short-story writer in English. One of the finest stories I've ever read is "My Sunday at Home." And "Proofs of Holy Writ" is a maginificent meditation on Shakepeare's genius.

By the bye, the phrase "tertium quid" (lit. "third thing" in Latin) means a thing that is related to two different things but distinct from both.

Thank you to whoever is responsible for this group. It is wonderful to be in touh with others who "Kipple."

Cheers!
Stephen

[Wildrose]

I discovered this group tonight. After a group of friends asked me if Kipling was pro war. I thought perhaps I had misread him. I was happy to find the comments here. I agree with GTR in comparing Kipling to Twain. In his book From Sea To Sea, about his travels in the U.S., he recounts a visit with Twain. He was a great fan. This book is well worth reading. His impressions of the U.S. are laced with the irony, good humor and satire he used in his other books. He was a man a head of his times in many ways.

[starrwriter]

By the way, I think Kipling the greatest underrated short-story writer in English. One of the finest stories I've ever read is "My Sunday at Home." And "Proofs of Holy Writ" is a maginificent meditation on Shakepeare's genius.

I'm almost ashamed to admit I have never read Kipling despite knowing he had a reputation as a great writer. So many books, so little time ...

But I'm glad you mentioned his flair for the short story, which is my favorite form of fiction. I intend to download some Kipling stories from the web ASAP. I'm sure his writing is public domain by now.

[rachel]

rudyard kipling's stories played a large role in my childhood years. I was always either being read him or reading him. the illustrations and the beautiful colors took me on faerie wings to other times and places.
since unless one reads from the author him or herself distinct feelings and thoughts and beliefs about different cultures and peoples it is sometimes easy to say the author was racist. but those that are rather reporter type writers may simply be telling it as it is so to speak and mean nothing by it. things that seem dubious in that area might simply be the character's personality and in no way the author's thoughts.
so I really cannot put in my two cents worth and say this or that without digging dip and seeing what Mr. Kipling believed.