Donne's Holy Sonnet 7

[JePi]

Hi everyone!

I've been reading John Donne's Holy Sonnet no 7 over and over and can't, for the life of me, figure out what conceit or wit he uses in the poem. He is considered one of the greatest metaphysical poets. Would be very grateful, if someone could help me!

It goes like this:

At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
Your trumpets, angels; and arise, arise
From death, you numberless infinities
Of souls, and to your scattered bodies go
All whom the flood did, and fire shall o'erthrow,
All whom war, dearth (famine), age, agues (fevers), tyrannies,
Despair, law, chance hath slain, and you whose eyes
Shall behold God, and never taste death's woe.
But let them sleep, Lord, and me mourn a space;
For, if above all these my sins abound,
'Tis late to ask abundance of thy grace
When we are there. Here on this lowly ground,
Teach me how to repent; for that's as good
As if thou hadst sealed my pardon with thy blood.

[OrphanPip]

Well the octet is a conceit describing all of humanity that has lived and ever will live, and alludes to the apocalypse/judgment day.

Edit: The sestet is basically "Hey God, won't it be kind of late at the apocalypse, when all of these people are there to be judged, to measure my sins, why not tell me how to repent now. That would be like Jesus."

[neilgee]

Thanx for the analysis, OrphanPip, and what an excellent sonnet it is. I really enjoyed that one.

[OrphanPip]

Ya, I love sonnets.

Sonnet 35 - Lady Mary Wroth

False Hope which feeds but to destroy and spill
What it first breeds, unnaturall to the birth
Of thine owne wombe, conceiving but to kill
And plenty gives to make the greater dearth.

So Tyrants doe, who falsly ruling Earth,
Outwardly grace them, and with profits fill,
Advance those who appointed are to death;
To make their greater fall to please their will.

Thus shadow they their wicked vile intent,
Colouring evill with a show of good:
While in faire showes their malice so is spent;
Hope kill's the heart, and Tyrants shed the blood.

For Hope deluding brings us to the pride
Of our desires the farther downe to slide.

[Virgil]

Well the octet is a conceit describing all of humanity that has lived and ever will live, and alludes to the apocalypse/judgment day.

Edit: The sestet is basically "Hey God, won't it be kind of late at the apocalypse, when all of these people are there to be judged, to measure my sins, why not tell me how to repent now. That would be like Jesus."

A conceit is a metaphor, a comparison stretched in tension. I'm JePi on this one. I don't see the conceit. The sestet as you expain is a straight expounding of an idea. Where's the metaphor?

It is a marvelous sonnet. If I had read this before I don't recall it now. But I shall from now on.

[OrphanPip]

A conceit is a metaphor, a comparison stretched in tension. I'm JePi on this one. I don't see the conceit. The sestet as you expain is a straight expounding of an idea. Where's the metaphor?

It is a marvelous sonnet. If I had read this before I don't recall it now. But I shall from now on.

Well I figure it's an implicit metaphor with an unnamed tenor.

" you numberless infinities /Of souls," This is humanity.

"All whom the flood did, and fire shall o'erthrow,
All whom war, dearth (famine), age, agues (fevers), tyrannies,
Despair, law, chance hath slain, and you whose eyes
Shall behold God, and never taste death's woe" This is an extension of the metaphor, as it describes all of humanity in a way by describing all the ways people can die, and mentioning those who will be there at judgment day.

[Virgil]

Well I figure it's an implicit metaphor with an unnamed tenor.

" you numberless infinities /Of souls," This is humanity.

"All whom the flood did, and fire shall o'erthrow,
All whom war, dearth (famine), age, agues (fevers), tyrannies,
Despair, law, chance hath slain, and you whose eyes
Shall behold God, and never taste death's woe" This is an extension of the metaphor, as it describes all of humanity in a way by describing all the ways people can die, and mentioning those who will be there at judgment day.

Hmm, I don't know. "and arise, arise/From death, you numberless infinities/Of souls, and to your scattered bodies go". I would say that calling the dead "souls" is a sort of euphemism. I guess a euphemism could be a metaphor, but this one is so traditional and engraved in our culture that i just don't see the conceit. It's basically a cliche here, though i think Donne does well with it. But I guess we're fiddling with subtle nuances of definition. Ok.

[Virgil]

On second thought, it's not a euphemism. He is explicitly referring to the souls and that they will be reincarnated at the end of time. Is that a metaphor? I still don't think so. It's straight Christian doctrine.

[OrphanPip]

On second thought, it's not a euphemism. He is explicitly referring to the souls and that they will be reincarnated at the end of time. Is that a metaphor? I still don't think so. It's straight Christian doctrine.

I suppose that would depend on if you take the Christian doctrine to be allegorical or literal. You may be right though, although the extended account of all the ways people can die has a lot in common with a typical conceit.

[JePi]

Thank you for the analysis, OrphanPip, and I guess it might depend on how you take the doctrine. But my thoughts were along the line of Virgil's.

Donne's speaker presents the idea of Judgement Day in the octet, and has to frighten himself with the actual arrival of Judgement Day to really feel the need to repent and then asks God to call it off in the sestet. Could that then be considered wit..? A wit of redemption?

The last lines "Teach me how to repent......thy blood" - could allude to the theological tension between the Puritans and the Church of England. (Donne was a dean in the Church of England.) According to Puritan belief, praying for redemption is useless, since, not all mankind, only "the elect", could reach salvation and only by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But is that conceit...?

[Virgil]

I suppose that would depend on if you take the Christian doctrine to be allegorical or literal. You may be right though, although the extended account of all the ways people can die has a lot in common with a typical conceit.

Christians today take it as literal. Donne, being a preacher, certainly would have.

[Virgil]

Thank you for the analysis, OrphanPip, and I guess it might depend on how you take the doctrine. But my thoughts were along the line of Virgil's.

Donne's speaker presents the idea of Judgement Day in the octet, and has to frighten himself with the actual arrival of Judgement Day to really feel the need to repent and then asks God to call it off in the sestet. Could that then be considered wit..? A wit of redemption?

The last lines "Teach me how to repent......thy blood" - could allude to the theological tension between the Puritans and the Church of England. (Donne was a dean in the Church of England.) According to Puritan belief, praying for redemption is useless, since, not all mankind, only "the elect", could reach salvation and only by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But is that conceit...?

I wouldn't think so, but if your teacher insists on a conceit, perhaps that's the most that one can go on. Best of luck and thanks for getting me to read this poem.

[JePi]

Thank you, Virgil! And you are very welcome.