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Thread: Religion - Evolution in action?

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    Religion - Evolution in action?

    I have often wondered, and would like the thoughts of others on this, whether the predominance of religion in society is actually evidence of evolution in action. Not sure if I can get down my reasoning for this coherently but I'll have a bash.

    What is it that makes the human race successful? The human race succeeds because of it's ability to live in large social groups; significantly larger than any other species on the planet. The ability to live in a large social group gives a number of benefits being protection, division of labour, sharing of resources, specialism of skills etc. However, humans are inherently selfish and ultimately the aim of most people (albeit that this is largely hidden under more complex emotional issues) is to ensure 1) their survival and 2) their happiness. So, for a race which is busy looking after no.1 the development of a large interactive, inter-dependent social structure seems unlikely. Here enters religion. Religion (amongst other devices) encourages individuals to set aside their immediate needs/wants/desires with the goal of a longer term guarantee of happiness (i.e. heaven) in the afterlife. So religion gives people a moral blueprint, which also happens to be a good way to live, if you live in a large social group.

    The reason I think religion or a belief in religion is evidence of evolution in action is a comparitive issues. Imagine a time, say several thousand years ago, when you had two societies. One society functioned without religion, each person served their own personal need first, and the need of society second. The second society held religious views which allowed them to work more cohesively as a social group. Which society would succeed? The likelihood is that the society with religious belief would succeed and is more likely to thrive than the society without. In evolutionary terms survival of the fittest will out, therefore the society with religious belief would come to dominate and be prevalent - as it is in our society even if there are a number of religions and those religions do not necessarily agree. This would also be consistent with the regional nature of religion (which is, I accept, diminishing due to globalisation and the spread of an information culture) as people from the same global area generally have a coherent religious system, which in many ways will carry similarities to religious systems of their neighbours.

    Not sure I've explained this overly well, and I'm certainly no expert on religion or evolution! However, I wonder whether there is any point asking people the question, 'Why do you believe in God'?, when this, in some respects, may be the same as asking 'Why do you speak English', if you were born in an English speaking country. Is religion evolution in action, or something more than that?
    Is athiesm the next step in evolution?

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    Nice analysis, Bii. This is going to be a fun topic.

    Religion does bring groups of humans together, therefore, giving our species predominance. The group always outperforms the individual.

    The problem with modern society, is that it takes an organized religion to bring people together.
    Last edited by hyperborean; 03-18-2007 at 06:30 PM.

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    Wow! I'd never thought of it like that before, Bii. What you're saying seems to make sense. But the thing is, that having a religion does not necessarily fuse the social group together, nor prevent people from looking out for themselves first and foremost. There are lots of factors affecting the cohesion of a group, are there not?
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    Procrastinator General *Classic*Charm*'s Avatar
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    Intersting topic Bii!! This should get interesting...

    I agree with you that the second society you described, the one that worked cohesively as a social group will the the more successful, but I don't think that it is becasue of their religion that this is so. Many people who don't have a faith or religion are still able to put the needs of a greater good above their own indivdual needs. I think it is the morals instilled in each person by his or her predecessors that determines whether or not that person can function within a society. Similarly, it is not a lack of religion that would be resposible for the downfall of the other society. Even without religion, there are still ties that bind that society together, and it is their inability to use those connections that make the society falter.

    In fact, religion has been the cause of war and disruption for thousands of years. The people may still be able to function as a society, but I don't believe that their religion is what allows them to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm* View Post
    In fact, religion has been the cause of war and disruption for thousands of years. The people may still be able to function as a society, but I don't believe that their religion is what allows them to do so.
    Hopefully, when man reaches the next level of consciousness we won't need religion. We shall live for the earth...for the good of mankind...not for God.

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    Procrastinator General *Classic*Charm*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperborean View Post
    Hopefully, when man reaches the next level of consciousness we won't need religion. We shall live for the earth...for the good of mankind...not for God.
    Hear Hear!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm* View Post
    Even without religion, there are still ties that bind that society together, and it is their inability to use those connections that make the society falter.
    - hmm, name some? In particular name some that aren't founded in , or had their origins in some form of religion - i.e. I personally am not religious, would count myself as an athiest, but am still guided (both because it makes sense and because our laws are founded on them) by the 10 commandments. I suppose the question is, are our morals founded in religion, or did religion simply draw together the most logical moral principals, adopt them, and communicate them as their own?

    Quote Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm* View Post
    The people may still be able to function as a society, but I don't believe that their religion is what allows them to do so.
    - in principle I agree, but this occurs after the point where religion has made a society successful, eventually people move beyond the need of a omnipotent force to guide/regulate them and find other means. I believe that the Greeks had an almost religious faith in the 'State' and their religion was secondary to this - however, they seem to be fairly unique in this respect.

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    Actually the premisse of the idea is wrong. Humans are not inherently selfish.
    It is a big risk to use cultural traits to show up biological traits. Darwin warned about this and the huge mistake of humanking, that thing Nazism, is caused by such mistake.

    - hmm, name some? In particular name some that aren't founded in , or had their origins in some form of religion - i.e. I personally am not religious, would count myself as an athiest, but am still guided (both because it makes sense and because our laws are founded on them) by the 10 commandments. I suppose the question is, are our morals founded in religion, or did religion simply draw together the most logical moral principals, adopt them, and communicate them as their own?
    Religion is a consequence of social groups, not what caused social groups to happen. Feelings such as those we call love or hate are not even an exclusivity of Homo Sapiens (or even Homo). They are stronger than anything to keep sides together.
    Before any society, the homo (all the genres) already organized themselves in colective groups, sharing functions, taking care of the younglings and the weaklings, mourning for the death, etc. Those things put us together and later, the religion (and political organization, and art, and philosophy appeared as a result of the society, not as cause). And in those groups, the first moral concepts are developed. Then introduced in the histories and this formed religious stories. Not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Actually the premisse of the idea is wrong. Humans are not inherently selfish. .
    Perhaps you could elaborate on this - I disagree but am willing to be convinced otherwise! In general I believe that people act in a way to secure either their survival or their happiness, but happiness can be achieved in a number of obscure ways. Can you identify an act that a human being does that is not, in any way, selfishly motivated?

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Religion is a consequence of social groups, not what caused social groups to happen......Before any society, the homo (all the genres) already organized themselves in colective groups, sharing functions, taking care of the younglings and the weaklings, mourning for the death, etc. Those things put us together and later, the religion (and political organization, and art, and philosophy appeared as a result of the society, not as cause).
    Again, I agree but the point here is that it evidences an evolutionary pattern - i.e. humanity starts with small social groups where an immediate selfish need is satisfied by the small group. At some point a small social group developed a form of religion, a regulator and set of rules which allowed their society to flourish and grow until it dominated the societies around it. You can't escape the fact that religion is a dominant force in our current society (albeit that it appears to be, on the face of it, diminishing). My premise is that religion evolved (as you have also argued), allowed the human race to flourish and grow into an incredibly and uniquely complex society (where we are now), and my question is, will religion eventually evolve out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bii View Post
    Perhaps you could elaborate on this - I disagree but am willing to be convinced otherwise! In general I believe that people act in a way to secure either their survival or their happiness, but happiness can be achieved in a number of obscure ways. Can you identify an act that a human being does that is not, in any way, selfishly motivated?
    One of the main differencials of human kind is the capacity to care for childlings, to sacrifice for them, even when you are not the mother/father (many other primates already have this). The very mortherly instint is also something we can not call selfish in any way. In fact, I think it is very impossible to claim humankind is selfish or not, more like, we are both.


    Again, I agree but the point here is that it evidences an evolutionary pattern - i.e. humanity starts with small social groups where an immediate selfish need is satisfied by the small group. At some point a small social group developed a form of religion, a regulator and set of rules which allowed their society to flourish and grow until it dominated the societies around it. You can't escape the fact that religion is a dominant force in our current society (albeit that it appears to be, on the face of it, diminishing). My premise is that religion evolved (as you have also argued), allowed the human race to flourish and grow into an incredibly and uniquely complex society (where we are now), and my question is, will religion eventually evolve out?
    The point that biological evolution concept can not be applied with perfection to our culture. Sure, you can present an analogy, but that is just a language play thing (not saying it is not valid either, everything is a language game anyways).
    There is no doubt that the formation of religion was caused by the need to organize the moral rules and tradition and such as they helped to preserve (and therefore, the survival) of determinated groups. Everything in your cultural history works in this way (nothing is useless), art, science, the army, political organization - they are all keys of society preservation.
    But I would find harder to apply the rest of biological evolution (Marx always did, but such is life) even because, there is second chances in our society, cultural cicles - for example, after the XIX century who would say we would find ourselves again in the middle of a conflict that have religious roots with a mindset that seeemed to be buried long ago? That would be like a T.Rex walking alive again.

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    Religion is nothing more than a way to scare or trick people into becoming what the writer or writer's believe to be morally right. Religion was founded to organize us into a morally aware species. Atheism could be the next step in social evolution if the society is in fact based on a religion. What all societies need to do is take what is morally right from religion and mix in other obvious/unincluded morals to form a society that believes as Hyperborean put it "We shall live for the earth...for the good of mankind...not for God." Only when we believe that we will have truly mentally/emotionally evolved.

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    Cur etiam hic es? Redzeppelin's Avatar
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    Highly debatable.
    "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis

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    Interesting topic Bii, I can certainly understand where you would draw that conclusion. Look at the Amish. Their's is a society based totally on religion, family and working together. And they have thrived, amazingly, in modern society by rebuking the outside world and secularism. One could definitly look at them and see that maybe they have a better understanding of life than we do. I do understand many people's views taht religion has caused a lot of damage, look at the Crusades or the turmoil in Ireland. Even what is happening now between the US and Iraq. A lot of that happens because organized religion is so rigid, it doesn't offer any tolerance of other's beliefs which is a tragedy. If we could find a way for all of us to work together, Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, even Athiests, our world could be so much better. That is what we should be trying to achieve, rather than abolishing religion all together. Whether you believe in God or not, you have to admit that having the 10 Commandments has helped by forming laws that aid our society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adudaewen View Post
    Interesting topic Bii, I can certainly understand where you would draw that conclusion. Look at the Amish. Their's is a society based totally on religion, family and working together. And they have thrived, amazingly, in modern society by rebuking the outside world and secularism. One could definitly look at them and see that maybe they have a better understanding of life than we do.
    Technically, the Amish contribute nothing to society and the goal of reaching a new level of consciousness. They dig their feet in the ground and the watch the rest of humanity work hard to move forward.

    Yes, it would be nice for all people to live in peace with each other. The problem is that people misinterpret or warp the religion they follow. The so-called "terrorists" misinterpret what Allah would actually want. Christians think that getting born again (repenting etc.) would cleanse them of the wrongs they have committed.

    If Christians were all like zeppelin, then we would see some progress. He fully understands the religion he follows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redzeppelin View Post
    Highly debatable.

    Well of course this is true...I was simply stating my opinion.
    "If insanity is being trapped in the prison we call our minds, we are all insane"-D.N.C. III (me )

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