Racism In Fiction

[Sancho]

Amen to keeping an open mind, but where do you draw the line between literature and hate-propaganda? Doesn’t it become a subjective judgment? And don’t these judgments tend to fluctuate over the years? It reminds me of a comment from a US Supreme court justice (I don’t remember who said it but he was probably on Earl Warren’s court); the court was embroiled in an obscenity debate and one of the justices was asked to define pornography (as opposed to art). The justice replied, “I don’t know how to define pornography, but I know it when I see it.”

Back off topic again…

How-D-Do Steig,

Man, I haven’t heard of any of those guys. I guess cosmic horror is a genre I’ve never read and one that I’m totally unfamiliar with. But you’ve piqued my interest, so – what the hay. I’m gonna try to pick up a copy of one of your recommendations at my local library. Ya know, you’ll never learn anything if you don’t try new stuff, eh?

[McGrain]

Amen to keeping an open mind, but where do you draw the line between literature and hate-propaganda? Doesn’t it become a subjective judgment? And don’t these judgments tend to fluctuate over the years? It reminds me of a comment from a US Supreme court justice (I don’t remember who said it but he was probably on Earl Warren’s court); the court was embroiled in an obscenity debate and one of the justices was asked to define pornography (as opposed to art). The justice replied, “I don’t know how to define pornography, but I know it when I see it.”

Yeah, I like this. Well said. Especially a-men to keeping an open mind, but where do you draw the line between literature and hate propoganda? It seems most people want to say "no, i wouldn't stop reading a book because of something offensive - unless it offended me so much that i stopped reading it". It's a little odd to say this, i think. I guess it's the point at which it stops being something you're reading and starts being something you're not reading that interests me. But maybe it hasn't happened to a lot of people.

[Demona]

Amen to keeping an open mind, but where do you draw the line between literature and hate-propaganda? Doesn’t it become a subjective judgment? And don’t these judgments tend to fluctuate over the years?

Indeed. Totally subjective. Literature or hate-propaganda? Never thought of a definition, but as you've quoted:"i know it when i see it".
Unfortunately, nowadays we see very well how "the judgements fluctuated over the years" regarding the WWII. (in the Baltic States, for example).

[kathycf]

I actually have seen hate propaganda, incidently. I think in my mind it is easy to draw a line, for a couple of reasons:

I don't frequent shops or libraries where hate propaganda is sold, or otherwise distributed. For all the ambiguity about what "it" is, that sort of thing is not available in public libraries and reputable bookstores, at least not in my little corner of the US. I am hardly likely to go searching it out either, so I feel pretty confident that should I ever encounter such trash, I can deal with it in the manner it deserves. I can hardly qualify say, H.P Lovecraft as racist hate material, can you?

Actually, years ago I had a room mate, who was a friend of a friend. I needed help with the rent and this person was quiet and stayed mostly in his room...no problems there. He decided to move out in the beginning of the summer one year, rather unexpectedly. He left behind some of his belongings, and after waiting 3 months I simply decided to get rid of it as it was not going to be claimed. I started gathering things up and there was a HUGE stack of nasty, horrible pamphlets and newsletters, all devoted to some racist organization that this person had apparently been a member of. I was completely shocked, and read about two paragraphs of one of the texts. Not only was it completely ignorant, it was rude, cruel and hateful. There was nothing for me to do but drop it into a metal trashcan and light it on fire, as I certainly wouldn't throw poison like that in the regular trash. To be perfectly clear, and frank this writing made me ill. Since I have never seen anything like that AT ALL in mainstream literature, I guess I would "know it if I saw it".

And no, I never heard from that person ever again, for which I am truly grateful.

Once I had to read Wright's Black Boy which is partly a biography and issues and manifestations of racism are discussed at lenght in the book.

Ah, yes. I own a copy of that book, my father gave it to me. Wright also grew up during the Depression I believe. I haven't read the book in a great many years (like many of my books, too many new ones to read), but I seem to remember the thing about the Depression and the grinding poverty that afflicted many citizens during that period, both white and black and every other color in between.

Erm, it occured to me that I might seem a bit angry in what I stated earlier. Please be assured that was not my intention.

[Stieg]

Back off topic again…

How-D-Do Steig,

Man, I haven't heard of any of those guys. I guess cosmic horror is a genre I've never read and one that I'm totally unfamiliar with. But you've
piqued my interest, so – what the hay. I'm gonna try to pick up a copy of one of your recommendations at my local library. Ya know, you'll never learn anything if you don't try new stuff, eh?

I am fine thanks. I love these three authors. That being said Blackwood and Machen are more subtle, more sophisticated, more cerebral. For instance, "The Great God Pan" was once considered a piece of decadent horror prevalent during 1890s. A girl undergoes experimental surgery and believes she sees Pan which leads to uninhabited sexual yearnings and madness.

"The White People" begins with a weird but stimulating conversation on evil then shifts to journal entries written by a young girl. *shudders*

Whileas Machen is more inconsistant than Blackwood but equally delectable with his ancient evils lurking and pagan histories, the latter is a wonderfully gifted writer whom centered many of his tales on the darker wonderous speculative even notions of Nature. Read every short story by this Master.

All three are impressive and oh so influential on supernatural and horror fiction. I originally started with a great love affection for HPL but since than Machen and Blackwood have become greater favorites by a slim margin.

And this isn't even touching the ghost writers and other weird tale authors but that is another subject entirely that will be visited I am sure in another thread another day.

Oops, sorry, I am hijacking this thread. Nuff said. Out.

[Robert Jordan]

I've read quite a few stories by Lovecraft, about 20 or so. I didn't find any racism. Please tell me what story does he show he is a racist?

[PeterL]

Hey all.

I'm a big H.P.Lovecraft fan, and judging from some of the recent posts on weird fiction, i'm not alone. But Lovecraft was a confirmed racist. And his racism was of the very worst type, that of the "bestial" variety, where a non-white "character" would be reduced to the status of sub-human, sneaky and untrustworthy at best. I would say that this is the type of racism a culture needs to demonstrate before the very worst atrocities can occur.

Lovecraft also had "white" characters that were rather bestial, so I don't think that it was racism as much as the need for sub-human characters. In some ways he was a child of his time, when it was thought that there were characteristics of personality or character that were common to all members of ethnic and racial groups. That attitude is racist, but it was alleged to be based on scientific research.