Now that I know someone agrees with me, I am emboldened...
Nor does it "pay" to have friends willing to watch you harm yourself without helping or caring.
Now that I know someone agrees with me, I am emboldened...
Nor does it "pay" to have friends willing to watch you harm yourself without helping or caring.
Por una cabeza
Si ella me olvida
Qué importa perderme
Mil veces la vida
Para qué vivir
Were I Tara, I would resent him for such an interferance and the irrevocable "black mark" on the life that she would then have to live because of his judgement. It never pays to have friends so willing to ruin something because they don't agree with it.
Good thing you ended the story when you did.
Other than that, I enjoyed your fiction.
Am I the only one who noticed that the post order in this thread has been bounced around?
Whangdoodle - Mythological bird who morns endlessly and without reason.
(look it up)
Perhaps "pay" was just a matter of poor wording.
Look at it this way (I can't believe that I'm discussing the motives and possible future thoughts of charactors that are not my own, but just the same, I do hope it helps you to develop an idea of the thoughts of the lesser important charactors in your writing) ...so why not.
Tara had already decided that her life had no value and was not worth having. Why should she endure more pain in order to perpetuate the already unwanted life?
I'm sure, and this is the voice of experience, that all her judgments beyond that day would be baised on her already self destructive ways. Judgements that would only lead to a series of unfortunate events, as she sees herself as not being worth fighting for.
It's not a far stretch to think that even though a phone call was made to "save her life" that she would continue to see no reason to better it or even find the slighest hint of anything in her that could be seen as a redeaming quaility. Trash is Trash, and one considering suicide sees themselves as just that.
The fact that a "friend" of hers put on a false persona in order to obtain her deeper thoughts under pretence of caring, is a tremendous stab in the back by one who shoud have been 'trustworthy'. Had he been a real friend, he would have pushed aside all of the self glorifying cleverness that was nothing but a tool to help himself to feel better about his own greatness. Look back at your story and see how much attention you paid the Mighty cleverness and pride in trickery that your main charactor posseses.
No, attention was paid to how the subversive act by one who considered himself to be her friend, effected her view of what a friend is capable of.
Deception...all for the self glorification of the "vigilante".
The phone call was not to help the girl who was about to free herself from an existance of pain, it was all about the moral obligation of the one who knew what she was about to do, and how that phone call would make him feel better about himself. It had nothing to do with her. If it did, he would not have made a public display of her pain, Just so he can stand back and say with his arms wide "I Saved Her, See How Great and Clever I Am".
She will have to learn to tolerate the Objecting looks from all who know about her attempted act and that includes not only family, but medical and law enforcement officials who would be made aware of her action each time they run her name through their little computers. You are treated with condecention when labled as "depressed", you can actualy see the change in expression when the read it on the computer screen.
Oh Yess (scarcasm) I can realy see how his phone call improved an already difficult and unwanted life.
It's all about the one who places the call, not the the one that the call is supposidly for.
Hmm. Strong feelings on the matter?
Vigilante has been rescuing (perhaps not the word you would use) would-be suiciders for some time, in the context of the story. He encounters Tara solely by chance, and only upon seeing her picture does he realize that he knows her -- that she is his neighbor.
I realize I'm biased, but I don't see anything that indicates Vigilante is working for self-glorification, at least not as of the end of the story. He does his work in secret and, even when Tara realizes that he's the one that kept her from killing herself, focuses on Tara's well-being (in spite of herself) rather than lauding his role in her survival.
The caring is also not a pretense -- Vigilante states it explicitly in the first few paragraphs and also behaves on it implicitly with the last sentence. He genuinely cares about Tara, but not in the manner she believes. If anyone bears a pretense, Tara does, for trying to guilt her friend (Vigilante's secret identity) with something she knows is a lie.
However, you do bring up some important ambiguities in my writing. Would it help at all if I gave Tara an invalid or unreasonable rationale for wanting to die?
Por una cabeza
Si ella me olvida
Qué importa perderme
Mil veces la vida
Para qué vivir
“I thought you were my friend.” It’s a lie – she hasn’t considered me a friend for years. She told Vigilante so. Trying to guilt me? Well, if it makes her feel better…
This was not a lie on her part, only the view of the Vigilante.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whatever reason you give her for wanting to die, it would be from the perspective on one who lacks an understanding of her pain - as only she could know it. You would make it seem trite, Unless your truly willing to try and climb inside the mind of deeply depressed person.
Write whatever you wish, It is yours after all.
Just thought I could add a bit of insite into an area that you were unable to peer into.
I do think that if he realy cared he would not have made a public display of her.... like a side show freak.
Sad that he pretended to care and never bothered to be honest with her or himself.
Perhaps I need to explain more, but the circumstances I had in my mind were that she told Vigilante on the phone that she hasn't considered her neighbor a friend for years.
By an “invalid” reason, I mean something trivial that clearly doesn’t stem from genuine depression, only melodrama.
I suppose you’re right – giving a specific reason beyond a passing mention would probably be cliché and insincere. And you’re right, I can’t really know what a depressed person is thinking, but I’ve seen what suicide can cause, and misery is high on the list.
More personally, what can you tell me about the goings-on inside one who is depressed? I’d like to learn more, although I don’t want to pressure you into talking about something too personal.
Por una cabeza
Si ella me olvida
Qué importa perderme
Mil veces la vida
Para qué vivir
Sorry Robin, I am not to be treated as a side show freak or a source of amusement.
-Please keep that in mind -
Reservations, on my part, do exist as far as discussing this topic goes, but it is with the understanding that you do not understand, that prompts me to allow this discussion.
I have read quite a bit of your work and I feel strongly that you have an inate talent, a gift that many others would give their right arms (arm)to posses. With that in mind, I will indulge you. Your lack of understanding when it comes to that sort of charactor may only serve to hold you back.
Not knowing weather or not I can assist you in your learning process, I will give it a try.
___________
What you openly view as "melodrama" (that shows a lack of understanding)
of a depressed persons mind; the "melodrama" as you call it, are at times suffocating and deeply life altering concerns. Reality is a matter of perception and the perceptions of a person caught in the grip of depression are always dark and insurmountable, that is where hopelessness comes from.
Misery is remanant of sucide. If the one commiting the act feels unloved then they have no cause to think that anyone would notice their absence, much less mourn it. If anyone feels misery at the loss of the one who left, it is temporary and will pass much faster than the pain of continuing a life that is percieved as nothing but decades of seemingly endless pain and misery.
In the mind of a depressed person the pain of those left behind is passing, if it ever were to even take place. The unloved have no one to mourn them, it's easy to see why their thoughts rarely extend beyond thier own confused, pointless, loveless, miserable existance.
Last edited by Whangdoodle; 11-05-2006 at 10:53 AM.
I don't mean to offend you, I don't think of you as a source of amusement, and I certainly didn't equate melodrama to depression. If you would read my above post again, I was differentiating between depression and melodrama. I have seen my peers think of themselves as depressed but been only seeking attention. When I said I wanted to learn more about true depression, I was being sincere.
Por una cabeza
Si ella me olvida
Qué importa perderme
Mil veces la vida
Para qué vivir
It would be good to know that you have, at least, some understanding of the differences between Melodrama and Depression.
We all have had the pleasure/displeasure of knowing the sort of people that make an undue fuss over not having the complete attention of their current cohorts, and or the financial status that they wrongfully think that they are entitled too. These are the Drama queens who pitch a fit over a broken nail or not having the matching purse to compliment her shoes. That Is Not depression, that is spoiled child who at some point learned that tears will get them their way, If denied their request *gasp* they then push themselves to the horifficaly drastic point of curling up on the sofa and rocking with a pillow between their arms.
Moaning....."Nobody loves me 'cause I can't get my way."
They are shallow irratants and I pay them no mind.
Now that you (hopefully) have a clear idea of what I consider to be a Drama Queen, I will wait to see if we are in aggreance before moving on.
Also, do you wish to have this conversation here?
Agreed -- although the person I had in mind was a girl who thought her ordeals were worse than everyone else's (they weren't, not by a far sight) and worried her friends to death with open discussion on cutting and suicide. Although I didn't have her in mind when I wrote my story, perhaps the scenario would be more palatable if Tara were more like her and less ambiguous.
Perhaps a new thread in the philosophical forum, if there isn't one on the subject already.
Por una cabeza
Si ella me olvida
Qué importa perderme
Mil veces la vida
Para qué vivir
Very Good!
I liked that it wasn't all explained from the beginning and you got to find out that Vigilante was her best friend (although not the other way around).
Very nice dialog. By nice I mean it felt real instead of forced or overtly intelligent.
IMO it's good enough to publish.
I would disagree. I think that making her less ambigous would also make the read less interesting.Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
I liked this story. It did confuse me a little to begin with, but it made more sense as it continued, and that is what makes you want to read it to the end. Well done!
I'm Sorry for interjecting - actually I retract that, I'm not sorry because if I were I wouldn't be posting.
I believe you are incorrect on your statement below. Granted it is your opinion but, however yours it may be it still doesn't make it right.
Simply because someone has assessed their own life and deemed it to be worthless or too painful to live does not make it true. What am I saying? I suppose you know all too well what is the meaning behind my statement. However, I'll explain further because I do not want to assume everyone will understand.
First of all if there is someone who is truly depressed there are several reasons for the source of that depression. As far as this character is concerned it is an un-founded depression because she would rather die than be brave enough to live and break up with her boyfriend.
With that in mind depression can stem from either an hormonal imbalance, to loss or neurological reasons. To say that if a person which experiences a hormonal depression and believes its life to be not worth living should not be interfered with because of their own decision, is just plain silly. I'm not talking about someone who is terminally ill and the pain can cause a type of depression which I would support on assisted suicide. Morality has nothing to do with allowing people to die for the right reasons or wrong reasons.
Most people will tell you suicide is wrong because life is precious. I would disagree with that statement. Life is not precious, not at least how it is used in that statement. If life were precious then we would consider all life precious, but instead we only consider sentient life precious and only those we seem to believe good engouh to save.
I am un-sure how familiar you are with this topic but it is not always true. I think you are trying to find a voice in this forum for some reason that escapes me or you have convinced yourself that you hold some knowledge which no one else is capable of holding.
I would call that a True friend. Someone that is willing to sacrifice a friendship for a friend in order to ensure their safety. I never got the feeling that the Vigilante ever felt better about how he had made her feel, except maybe that he saved her from a fate that would not have solved her problems.
LOL! I am sorry but I believe you must be delusional in your point of view or desire to be glorified by this posting. He never deceives her as a friend but instead she deceives him into believing they are still friends when she no longer considers him a friend. Besides, he loves her more than a friend. Although, not stated I believe the implication is that he loves her and would like to be with her but enjoys the friendship they share and does not wish to ruin that friendship. Even though the friendship is one sided.
Again this is a very shallow perception of the story and of life overall.
On the one had you put forth how horrible depression is and how the decision is hers to make. I would argue that while on depression people can do things they don't understand clearly or see clearly due to their depression. If the biggest problem she has to deal with is the 'Objecting looks' and the 'condecention' as you put it then I have to say that I do not feel sorry for her. Perhaps you should perform your own study at facilities (perhaps volunteer) and see the results when folks recuperate from depression. In your opinion Brookshield should have been allowed to kill her little girl when she was going through her post-partum depression because she had made the decision that it would be easier to eliminate the child than work through her depression.
I truly feel sorry for you because you not only not understand the story and characters but what life is all about. Misery doesn't end with death and you would be surprised if you were to believe that.
This was a great story of a troubled girl who was going to make a bad choice and someone who considered her as more than a friend stepped out his own character and helped her to live another day to perhaps gain some maturity to see that death was not her solution and that it would have never solved any of her problems. However, the story is good because although it is a 'nice' ending we truly don't know how it ends.
Last edited by Vada Dagon; 11-07-2006 at 07:11 AM.
Thanks to Vedrana and Vada Dagon for your input, both of you. Dialogue, I'm told, is my strong point, so thanks for noticing. I do rather like Tara as she is in the story -- right now, it's one vote for and against for changing her, so I'll have to see what others think and say about it. I'm also rather liked the non-linear format, so thanks for
Por una cabeza
Si ella me olvida
Qué importa perderme
Mil veces la vida
Para qué vivir
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