fate

[Aragorn]

The other day, i was talking about fate with my friend.
i said something like if you work hard and fight against all the obstacles you can totally change your fate. i mean there is no fate; man should fight for their fate.
but my friend said,"at any given time, you will face a lot of choices, for instance, either go to a movie or go to the library. but, because time is always heading forwards, you cant change what you decide and choose to do at that moment. that is fate. you look back, you can regret. but you cant do anything about it. even you want to make it up. that is still a decision you make at the moment."
he means that the fate is not altered by your right desicion. your making the right desicion is a fate. some people live like in a positive way, some have negative attitudes. that is fate.
so dont force anything, live what life provides you.
what do you guys think?

[bluevictim]

I have just been discussing a passage about fate over in the Homer section (a passage from the Iliad in a thread about translation in the Odyssey subforum -- true to Lit-Net form). I thought it might have some relevance here (from R.Lattimore's translation):

So speaking he set his child again in the arms of his beloved
wife, who took him back again to her fragrant bosom
smiling in her tears; and her husband saw, and took pity upon her,
and stroked her with his hand, and called her by name and spoke to her:
'Poor Andromache! Why does your heart sorrow so much for me?
No man is going to hurl me to Hades, unless it is fated,
but as for fate, I think that no man yet has escaped it
once it has taken its first form, neither the brave man nor coward.
Go therefore back to our house, and take up your own work,
the loom and the distaff, and see to it that your handmaidens
ply their work also; but the men must see to the fighting,
all men who are the people of Ilion, but I beyond others.'

I often encounter the thought that belief in predestination leads to a passive way of life (if things are predestined, why bother trying?), but here Hector uses it to justify an active way of life (going out to battle and taking his chances rather than shunning the battle). Achilles, when faced with his fate -- either die gloriously or live a long peaceful life without fame -- also chose the active option.

[one_raven]

"at any given time, you will face a lot of choices, for instance, either go to a movie or go to the library. but, because time is always heading forwards, you cant change what you decide and choose to do at that moment. that is fate. you look back, you can regret. but you cant do anything about it. even you want to make it up. that is still a decision you make at the moment."
what do you guys think?

I think your friend is confused.
I think what he described is pretty much the OPPOSITE of fate.

[Aragorn]

raven, what do you mean by the oppsite of fate

[one_raven]

Fate implies a state in which the future is pre-determined and can not be changed.
From what he was saying, it sounds to me like he was talking about a system in which individuals have complete control over the choices they have.
A system of self-determination is quite different from a system of pre-determination.

[one_raven]

Or was he saying that your decisions are made for you already?
The wording is a bit cumbersome.

[Stanislaw]

Some different Ideas:

Assuming an omnipotent God: since God is all knowing, he would know what our choices are, and what the outcome of our choices are even though we do not...so is that fate, considering that the choice is made in the future.

A different view:
There is no time, therefore fate is irrelevant, it is a matter of karma and samsara untill the level of bodhisafa has been obtained.

A third view:
We have no fate except for what we make ourselves.

My personal interpreatation:
At a personal level we have the freedom to make choices and change our future, however this is limited by all other members of society, and unless they change with you, your change is insignificant. So in a sense, a personal freedom, but a global fate.

[dramasnot6]

I think the closest we could get to the concept of fate is conformity. When someone conforms in every aspect of their lives it is much easier to predict what will happen to them next. I dont believe in any higher being or force that controls ones life, but i do believe that society sets such strong standards for conformity and expectations that it is possible in a way it controls fate. The media and advertising try to make you do something, theyre trying to control fate, politicians do the same. If everyone really did believe in fate then what would be the point in trying to manipulate and control everyones thoughts and actions? If there was a fate there would be no point in advertising, for if someone was meant to consume something they would with our without it. I think we are creators of our own fate, but our personal creation can be highly influenced by outside persuasions depending on our strength of will.

[Stanislaw]

I like your idea. It seams that humans have created a sort of demi-god: society, and it controls us. We can change it, we can mold it, we can even remove it and work together, but we just don't for fear of reprimand from our new invisable god.

[dramasnot6]

Thanks Stanislaw! Thats exactly what i meant. But most people feel happier being predictable and being controlled by society. They think its more comfortable and safe, but it think taking more control of ones life is what is msot fulfilling.

[Stanislaw]

well, yeah, to take controll, and be free would be awesome!