Drinking in Moderation

[=Monkey_King=]

In my humble opinion:
"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial"
-by Paul, one of my favorite quotes in the bible.

If drinking makes you crazy and violent, dont do it, but if it just adds hapiness, go ahead Whats so bad about making life a illusion? Only those who cannot control it can be doing a wrong thing.
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Also in my opinion every religion / philosophy is moderatively true.
This is a quote from the Taoist philosophy, very similar to Christianity, but of course without the concept "God" and his son "Jesus." (God is refered to as "heaven" or "the way."

- The great sage lives amongst the people, but is not contaminated by them. Indeed, he posesses his own fragrance, like the beautiful water lilies blooming from the murky water.

[mrbillbenson]

Shea,

I feel you are wrong, but I can see how much you would like to be right. All the good intentions in the World do not make something that is a wrong rendering of Jesus's truths correct, no matter what the circumstances. I can say I do not know, when I do not – but this is not one of those times. You are speculating that fornication REALLY means adultery in this very instance, and you are wrong, plain and simple. You are saying someone can remarry because one (and only one) of the meanings of the Greek word you wrote – porneia, or whatever – can mean adultery. My concordance uses the term "including adultery" which is to say, it isn't always. It does not have to mean that at all, it most certainly can mean sex between two people who are not married. Jesus used two words for adultery in the same passage on the subject (Mark 7:21). The word for fornications is very nearly the same there as in Matthew 19.

You want the Scriptures to mean what feels good to you. What you want the scriptures to mean is what most fundamentalist "Christians" want it to mean. Those who are willing for some of God's law, but not all. Who can throw out Jesus's law of forgiveness. You rationalize the actions of a cuckolded spouse who destroys his partner's future by divorcing him or her. Who is probably just as guilty of sinfulness in some other areas of his walk before God, but still passes judgment on their mate and closes off all avenue of repentance and reconciliation. Nevermind that that person was besieged by Satan, same as the divorcer, just maybe not in the same way. And nevermind that the one being put away may have given all they ever had to their spouse for many years, but for one slip...

No, hardness of heart, which dispels forgiveness, is not acceptable to God. If the heat is too much, and you want to get out of the kitchen, then fine ... but don't go cook in another kitchen. You are trying to give license to someone – who made a vow to love for better or worse - to push a reset button on their life because they got disappointed. No way, Jesus would not have ANY of that.

Now, here's why Matthew 19 does NOT mean infidelity during marriage.

Firstly, because treating this usage of fornication to mean sex before marriage makes Jesus's words consistent with the Old Testament. He didn't come to destroy that law, he said. A bride given to a husband was supposed to be a virgin, and if she was not a virgin (Matthew 1:18-19 anyone?) then the marriage was not on proper terms.

Secondly, the only times the exception is mentioned by Jesus, he is talking about a woman. That is to say, it has to do with a woman's requirement to be a virgin, in order to be worth the bride price, not the man. That's just the way it was, for what it's worth, not that I like it that way.

Third, Mark doesn't even mention the exception at all, so if it was such a blatant escape clause for every cuckolded mate to rely on, why would Mark leave it out? In fact, it was probably a pretty obscure occurrence (brides tended to marry pretty young, and most weddings would not go through with a bride who was secretly not a virgin)

Next, Jesus seemed pretty adamant that what God had joined should not be set apart by man. I would say, however, that a fraudulent marriage between a non-virgin bride and her unsuspecting groom was not something God had joined. I do admit this is ascribing more human fairness to God than he would take for himself, so I'm willing to let this assertion go if you like.

In all, the only reasonable answer is because he was referring to before-marriage sex by "fornication", and after-marriage sex by "adultery."

Suppose you were right about the meaning of fornication: adultery during marriage. Here are two scenarios that make your concept a moral contradiction. The first is an absurdity. The second, merely something that seems unfair in comparison to the first. (Note: I am not saying the second one is wrong, I am saying it is absurd in comparison to the first). Here they are:

Person A is unfaithful during the marriage (meets / falls in love with person C).
Person B divorces them.
Person B gets remarried, which is their right, according to your reading.
Person A marries Person C. By your definition, this isn't adultery. If you disagree, go back to Matthew 19 and reread it. So you have two wrongs making a right, how interesting (rather, how absurd.)

Next situation:
Person A is an abuser. He beats his wife, Person B.
Person B runs away from Person A, bringing the children.
Person A never remarries. Person B cannot remarry because no one has committed adultery (yet).

Unfortunate as it is (and I know some cases where this has happened) the above situation is what the Scripture says. Paul also says that if the believing one departs, the Lord commands they remain single.

Anyway, the Bible was not meant to be fair, but it is meant to be understood as much as possible, and not to read into it what we *wish* were so.

[DumbLikeAPoet]

The only acceptable reason for divorce is fornication.

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If you look up this instance of fornication in Strongs' you get this....

G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

G4203 is this.....

G4203
πορνεύω
porneuō
porn-yoo'-o
From G4204; to act the harlot, that is, (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry: - commit (fornication).

Now as far as I can tell this is not speaking about Fornication before mairrage. The context of this verse is speaking about fornication at any time.....

Jonus

[mrbillbenson]

Jonus - you are simply wrong. Jesus meant before marriage sex ... Mark skips it entirely (it hardly ever happened); pre-marital sex is definitely one of the literal, possible meanings, and if you put in context of

Jesus's message about hardness of heart - things that God has joined not being put assunder - looking on someone with lust being equal in sinfulness to "doing it" you will understand better that he did NOT want people who believe in a resurrection, where all inequities will be more than compensated, to cut off another's avenue to repentance and reconciliation.

Right is right even if no one does it, and wrong is wrong even if everybody does it. Don't teach others to commit fornication and adultery.

You want to know why "wide is the way that leads to distruction and many there be that go in thereat ..." you are part of the reason. Because you sanction what at least half the world is doing; cheating on one another, breaking up, remarrying, and getting on with their "saved" existences.

Jesus will judge it all, not me. I just try to give people the skinny, the facts, and not pin hopes on misreading Jesus intent. That is why I believe in following a whole Bible, not a Bible full of holes.

Regards,

bill

[DumbLikeAPoet]

Unfortunatly for your theory the bible doesn't say fornication before marriage. It simply says fornication. It does not specify a time.

I do not condone people cheating on their spouse in any way. But if my wife cheats on me the bible says that I can "put her away" ie divorce her.

I'm sorry bill but the bible just does not bear out what you say.

Jonus

[mrbillbenson]

I disagree with you. Thanks for expressing your thoughts.

Nice forum here, when used right. Everyone gets a say. I hope that people are praying, so that the Lord gets a say too!

[Tirananniel]

The Bible does have a say about drinking, from moderate to drunkenness. Please check out the 75 Bible warnings(http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm) against intoxicating wine. Please remember that there was fermented and unfermented wine in those times.

As far as fornication goes, there are many Bible references that tell us to flee from sexual impurity:

Abstain from sexual immorality. Acts 15:29

Flee from sexual immorality.1 Cor. 6:18

But among you there just not be even a hint of sexual immorality…because these are improper for God’s holy people. Eph. 5:3

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: Sexual immorality [and] impurity…. Col 3:5

It is God’s will that you … should avoid sexual immorality.. 1 Thess. 4:3


I could find more but I do not have the time right now. These are key verses.

Yes I know this thread seemed rather old, but it was not locked, so it is ok right?

[Pendragon]

It really depends on what you mean by "moderation". Paul told Timothy to use wine for medicinal purposes. (I Timothy 5:24) I can't see that being wrong. But having had an alcololic dad, I know that even a little can often be too much. I'd stay away from it.

[Kaltrina]

I know that even a little can often be too much. I'd stay away from it.

I agree with you but as you said when one is not an alcoholic it doesn't matter if you drink. but everything with a limit. for example by religion it ia forbidden to drink but as everybody said before Christ drank wine and Mohamed did drink wine also, but the only reason why drinking is forbidden is because people lose their senses and become aggressive, violent or can do anything stupid to themselves. so that's why everything has a limit,drinking should, especially.........

[Pendragon]

Christ drank wine and Mohamed did drink wine also, but the only reason why drinking is forbidden is because people lose their senses and become aggressive, violent or can do anything stupid to themselves. that's why everything has a limit,drinking should, especially.........

I can't deny what the scriptures plainly say, so I won't try! Carefully watch that limit, however.

[Amra]

"Mohamed did drink wine also, but the only reason why drinking is forbidden is because people lose their senses and become aggressive, violent or can do anything stupid to themselves. so that's why everything has a limit,drinking should, especially........."

Could you give some reference that Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) drank wine? Thank you.

[Kaltrina]

Could you give some reference that Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) drank wine? Thank you.

You know Amra I am muslim, and people from my religion, who have read Holy Quran and other things about our religion told me that Propheto Mohammed drank wine, because it is healthy for ones blood, but of course menaing only one glass, not getting drunk....

[Amra]

Assalamu aleikum,

I don't mean to be rude, but when we talk about Islam, we have to give valid references. People who merely practice the religion, and have no other qualifications to discuss it, are not valid references, and we cannot take their opinions on the issue if they cannot prove it with valid arguments. Prophet Mohammed a.s didn't drink because alcohol is strictly prohibited in Islam. There is no such thing as "moderation in drinking" because Islam goes by the principle that, one not only should not commit a sin, but shouldn't even come close to it. Alcohol, in any amounts, is strictly forbidden in Islam, and Prophet MOhammed a.s said:

"Surely Allah has cursed Al-Khamr(intoxicant) and cursed the one who brews it and the one for whom it is brewed, the one who drinks it and the one who serves it, the one who carries it and the one for whom it is carried, the one who buys and the one who eats (profits from) it's price. "

In the Holy Qu'ran, Allah s.v.t says:
"O you who believe! Intoxicants and gambling are an abomination of Satan's handiwork. Avoid such (abomination) that you may prosper. (Holy Quran, 5:90) "

[okmit]

The Taliban,(religious students) were cited by the United Nations as the worlds leading producer of opium,the raw material for heroin.

Maulvi Hafeezullah,an official in the Taliban"s Foreign Ministry stated;"We can unleash a heroin bomb to match the United States nuclear bomb."

What difference does it make what the Koran says if the Islamic powers don't obey it?

[okmit]

Wine aids in digestion and was drank at meals.It was also key in every orgie.I have never read that anyone drank grape juice at either.It has been written;Moses got totaly wasted just after getting off the boat!
I prefer weed myself,but if you must drink,please dont drive.