Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25

Thread: Evidence and Certainty

  1. #1
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Tweet @ScherLitNet
    Posts
    23,903

    Evidence and Certainty

    In the light some recent discussions on the Forum, I would like to start a new thread. What is an unacceptable proof? How do we form our opinions? How willing are we to accept AND admit that we might be in fault in an argument or that the other party's suggestions are more persuasive than ours?

    Coincidentally, I have come across this article on BBC Magazine this morning:
    Believe it or not: The battle over certainty

    A POINT OF VIEW By Lisa Jardine


    There is something attractive about absolute beliefs, but we cannot afford ourselves the luxury of waiting for evidence on some issues... Sometimes, if you're lucky as a historian, you find a bit of evidence which illuminates a big idea. That happened to me this week in the Pepys Library at Magdalene College, Cambridge.

    The thought uppermost in my mind was how odd it is that non-scientists think of science as being about certainties and absolute truth. Whereas scientists are actually quite tentative - they simply try to arrive at the best fit between the experimental findings so far and a general principle.

    The manuscript I found was a ship's journal kept by a 17th Century English sea captain, who had offered to carry some state-of-the-art scientific equipment on a voyage to the west coast of Africa and back - two new pendulum clocks.

    The job he took on was to test the clocks to see if they kept accurate time in spite of being tossed up and down and generally shaken about at sea. I'll come back to how he got on in a moment.

    This week John Mackay from Queensland Australia, a passionate advocate of Creationism, has been touring halls and chapels in the UK attacking Darwin's theory that the human race has evolved gradually from the apes over millions of years.

    Mackay maintains that Genesis is literally true, that the earth is only a few thousand years old and that the exquisite organisation of nature is clear proof that God's hand lies behind all of creation. Mackay had hoped to debate the matter here in Britain with leading scientists. If evolution is "true", the Creationist challenges - step up and prove it.

    Notorious rogue

    There is something rather attractive about absolute beliefs. We all find them comforting: give up chocolate for Lent and you are taking a small step towards God's approval. Uncertainty is much more unsettling.

    One of the reasons why we find it difficult to make up our minds about climate change and global warming is that the data is so complicated. Glaciers are melting, holes are detected in the ozone layer, emission of greenhouse gases is rising, yet we have just gone through an unusually cold winter and spring is unseasonably late arriving - it is hard to get alarmed.

    Even a passionate advocate of the prospect of impending ecological disaster like the government's chief scientific advisor Sir David King, cannot go so far as to say: "It will be so, that is the absolute truth of the matter."

    It is a basic requirement of scientific method that a tentative explanation has to be tested against observation of the natural world. And from the very beginning scientists have been suspicious whenever the data fits the hoped-for results too closely.

    Which brings me back to my clock-testing sea-captain, and the ship's journal I was reading this week in Cambridge. I was looking for documents relating to attempts by the 17th Century Dutch scientist Christiaan Huygens to develop a pendulum clock which would enable mariners to find their longitude at sea (their precise east-west position on the globe).

    In 1664, shortly after the first proper scientific research institute, the Royal Society, had been established in London its president, who was an admirer of Huygens's work, offered to organise a series of sea-trials to be conducted by the English navy, using two of his pioneering clocks.

    Captain Robert Holmes, commander in charge of the Navy ship the Jersey, agreed to take the clocks along with him on a nine-month voyage down the west coast of Africa. He would keep the clocks wound and in working order, take regular measurements, make the necessary complex calculations and supply detailed documentation in support of his findings.

    When he got back to London in 1665 Holmes presented his report to an expectant Royal Society. The clocks had performed spectacularly well. Indeed, he declared, they had actually saved the expedition from disaster.

    Astonishing

    On the return journey, Holmes had been obliged to sail several hundred nautical miles westwards in order to pick up a favourable wind. Having done so, the Jersey and the three ships accompanying her sailed several hundred more miles north-eastwards. At which point, the four captains found that water was running worryingly low on board.

    Holmes's three fellow-captains produced three competing sets of calculations of their current position based on traditional reckoning, but all agreed they were dangerously far from any potential source of water.

    Not so, declared Holmes. According to his calculations - based on the pendulum clocks - they were a mere 90 miles west of the island of Fuego, one of the Cape Verde islands. He persuaded the party to set their course due east whereupon, the very next day, around noon, they indeed made landfall on Fuego, exactly as predicted.

    London was abuzz with excitement. The Fellows of the Royal Society were elated, and immediately rushed Holmes's account of how the pendulum clocks had saved the day into print. Orders began to be placed for the revolutionary new timekeepers.

    But the inventor himself, Christiaan Huygens was not so sure. And his reason for being more cautious than his London colleagues was precisely the fact that the clocks had proved so astonishingly accurate.

    "I have to confess", he wrote to the Royal Society. "That I had not expected such a spectacular result from these clocks. I beg you to tell me if the said Captain seems a sincere man whom one can absolutely trust. For it must be said that I am amazed that the clocks were sufficiently accurate to allow him by their means to locate such a tiny island."

    Well, Robert Holmes was not 'a sincere man'. In fact, he was a rather notorious rogue. History remembers him as the man whose thuggish and piratical behaviour towards the Dutch merchants along the Guinea coast in the 1660s directly caused the second Anglo-Dutch war.

    Tampering

    So the Royal Society asked an official from the Navy Board, Samuel Pepys - the same Pepys who wrote the diary - to check the evidence Holmes had provided against the day-by-day entries in his ship's journal. Well, that was the journal I went to look at in Cambridge this week.

    Lo and behold, it turns out that Holmes had falsified his evidence. The pendulum clocks had proved no more accurate for calculating longitude than conventional methods. The ships had been well and truly lost, the mariners had been extremely lucky to make landfall on the island of Saint Vincent before their water entirely ran out.

    Holmes thought that by tampering with his evidence he would please the scientists at the Royal Society. Instead, the too-precise nature of the match between his data and the results they wanted alerted them to the fact that his testimony was unreliable.

    And Huygens was right to be sceptical. His pendulum clocks never did prove accurate enough at sea to solve the problem of finding longitude. A scrupulous scientist like Huygens would rather be disappointed, than accept dubious evidence to provide pat confirmation of a pet theory.

    That continues to be true in all areas of scientific investigation today. Which is why no scientist will take up the creationist Mackay's challenge to "prove" the truth of Darwin's theory of evolution in a public debate. They know they cannot present a strongly held view based on a body of supporting evidence with the absolute certainty of a revealed truth.

    The most today's Royal Society is prepared to say is that a belief that all species on earth have always existed in their present form, and that the earth is "not consistent with the evidence from geology, astronomy and physics". And that is probably not enough to satisfy ordinary thoughtful citizens without a scientific training.

    Because most of us want more certainty, we're on the side of the 17th Century's ship's captain, believing the experiments ought to prove the scientific theory once and for all. Unfortunately, where arguments about the ecology are concerned, time is not on our side.

    We cannot afford ourselves the luxury of waiting for evidence which clinches the theory. We are going to have to learn how to participate in debates which are not about certainties. We have to decide right now whether we should sacrifice our right to cut-price air travel in order to cut carbon emissions. A public understanding of science has never been more important.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4950876.stm
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  2. #2
    An interesting article, and it exactly bears out my own experience of science and scientists. I have never been a scientist myself, merely taught it for many years, I am one of those that "can not do and teach" I am afraid. The history of science is a long progression of existing theories being supplanted or modified as new evidence or new and more accurate methods of measurement arise. The history of most religions on the other hand is composed of stagnant mires of dogmatic insistence on 'pure' doctrine and convoluted bendings and reinterpretations of said doctrine to fit new facts which often ignore awkward aspects of those facts and/or awkward aspects of the original doctrine when they clash with each other.
    It is also worth noting that even in the somewhat abstract science of philosophy a body of evidence and burden of proof is required for a theory to become accepted (note I say 'accepted' here and not 'proven'), strangely (or perhaps not) the sole exception to this is the field of philosophy of religion, where theories with neither proof nor evidence are the norm.

  3. #3
    The Eternal Fool Union Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Seseame Street
    Posts
    113
    This is actually a very interesting discussion idea. I'll do some research, formulate a point and be back with an aurgument.
    "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it."
    Shepherd Book, Serenity.


    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
    -Bertrand Russell


    "The no-mind not-thinks no-thoughts about no-things"
    -The Buddha

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    12
    Science is heuristic - it generates probability statements, not proofs. Inferential statistics are useful in accepting or rejecting hypotheses. When they are used to make a scientific decision, the scientist may or may not find support for a hypothesis. The decision involves two types of inversely related error. Type I error occurs when the scientist concludes, based on scientific evidence, that the treatment worked when actually it did not. Type II error occurs when the scientist concludes, again based on scientific evidence, that the treatment did not work when actually it did. Statistics are only good for estimating the probability of these errors. There is never any scientific certainty, if we accept the assumption that there is an absolute (but unknown) truth.

  5. #5
    unidentified hit record blp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    2,436
    Blog Entries
    40
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
    strangely (or perhaps not) the sole exception to this is the field of philosophy of religion, where theories with neither proof nor evidence are the norm.
    Can you say a bit more about this, Grumbleguts? I'd got the impression, though I'm a novice at reading philosophy, that some of the great philosophers throughout history were religious and had taken some pains to try to give their belief a rigorous philosophical grounding. That said, I'd been under that impression about Kant and now as I start to properly read up on him I'm beginning to doubt it.

  6. #6
    now then ;)
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    a green island
    Posts
    3,865
    Blog Entries
    100
    On a personal level, I base my opinions firstly on the scientific data available and then look for examples which will either back up or expose the flaws in my hypothesis, only after this do I use personal opinions. This has been somewhat instilled in me through school, beginning in history class at 14 when my teacher throughout my essay because I had only used one source to research the topic (Housing in Scotland in the early 20th Century).

    One accepted method of scientific reasoning is to use Descartes 4 principles/rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Descartes
    -The first rule was never to accept anything as true unless I recognized it to be evidently such: that is, carefully to avoid precipitation and prejudgment, and to include nothing in my conclusions unless it presented itself so clearly and distinctly to my mind that there was no occasion to doubt it.

    - The second was to divide each of the difficulties which I encountered into as many parts as possible, and as might be required for an easier solution.

    - The third was to think in an orderly fashion, beginning with the things which were simplest and easiest to understand, and gradually and by degrees reaching toward more complex knowledge, even treating as though ordered materials which were not necessarily so.

    - The last was always to make enumerations so complete, and reviews so general, that I would be certain that nothing was omitted.
    This is generally sound practice, however as I mentioned earlier I start at the more complex evidence (scientific data) before moving to the simpler and more easily understood (personal observations).

    As a result Descartes method does not really work for me. I agree with steps 1,2 & 4 but have problems with his step 3

    Therefore I subscribe more easily to the theories of Francis Bacon who followed on after Descartes and he gave his definitions of the 4 idols of false knowledge. Namely:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon
    Idols of the market-place: Problems caused by misunderstanding words and terms
    Idols of the tribe: Incorrect ideas caused by human nature and shared by all
    Idols of the cave: Interpretations made solely from what we have personally experienced
    Idols of the theatre: Prejudices caused by external sources
    I think we can agree that have all fallen into one of these traps at one time or another.

    Bacon also derived his own rules for scientific thought and his method which were similar to Descartes with the exception that he started with the most independent theory and then worked to the generalisations. Bacon can pretty much be summed up with the quote "whatever the mind siezes and dwells upon with particular satisfaction is to be held in suspicion"

    Ok, I'm tired and that is probably just nonsensical rambling, I'll try to make more snese of it tomorrow (if I remember)


    ***EDIT***

    Ok, I've now actually gone and read the article in the first post. And I agree with the writer time is not on our side if we are going to change the detrimental effects we have had on the planet - however that does not not mean that there should not still be discussion in the scientific community as to what the severity of the effects are.
    These processes (altered means of living and scientific debate) should take place concurrently however. There is certainly no need to wait for the scientific proof before we start making the changes required in our individual lives to protect the planet, the debate for the general public should be more along the lines of what can we do to reduce our resource consumption. No information from the world of science is really required for this.

    Steps everyone can take:
    1) If you own a vehicle carry out regular maintenance to ensure efficiency.
    2) Move to energy saving lightbulbs
    3) Where possible purchase only products made from recyclable/recycled material
    4) Turn off lights/appliances when not in use
    5) Use washing machine on either the warm or cold wash settings where possible
    6) Install a low flow toilet
    7) Stop watering lawns/ washing cars on a weekly basis
    8) Compost
    9) Refuse to buy products which have excess packaging
    10)Replace old petroleum powered mowers for newer models

    Steps Industries should take:
    1) Invest in filters for any stacks
    2) Reduce packaging used
    3) Research alternative methods of carrying out practices
    4) If using glass containers use clear, uncoloured glass
    5) Offer incentives for consumers to return containers for re-use


    Steps governments must take:
    1) Offer incentives by means of tax credits for people who use ecologically sound methods of heating/powering their homes eg geothermal heating
    2) Construct wave and wind farms in suitable areas
    3) Penalise industries that are unwilling to adapt by way of fines
    4) Use the money raised through taxes on petrol to research alternative fuels instead of as a slush fund
    5) Ensure that there are adequate facilities to allow all people to dispose of waste in a responsible manner

    This is a general list because it is off the top of my head, however If we would all start doing the above it would go a long way towards reducing the strain of our resources.

    Half the problem is that people get too caught up on Kyoto and put too much of the blame on corporations and governments without realising what effect they themselves have.
    Last edited by kilted exile; 05-06-2006 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Lots
    There once was a scotsman named Drew
    Who put too much wine in his stew
    He felt a bit drunk
    And fell off his bunk
    And landed smack into his shoe
    ~(C) Ms Niamh Anne King

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade
    How willing are we to accept AND admit that we might be in fault in an argument or that the other party's suggestions are more persuasive than ours?
    I would say, "Hopefully entirely willing." Though sometimes the force of the arguments or the evidence therein isn't strong enough to counter a person's known worldview, anyway.

    In that case, you have to ask, why are they even listening to the opponents arguments?

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC Article
    This week John Mackay from Queensland Australia, a passionate advocate of Creationism, has been touring halls and chapels in the UK attacking Darwin's theory that the human race has evolved gradually from the apes over millions of years.
    Well, John Mackay has a big problem right off the bat, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC Article
    They [evolutionary scientists] know they cannot present a strongly held view based on a body of supporting evidence with the absolute certainty of a revealed truth.
    Is mass, large scale evolution taught in schools as truth or theory? Is it taught as the most likely to have happened, what could have happened, or what did happen?

    Why?


    Quote Originally Posted by “blp”
    I'd got the impression, though I'm a novice at reading philosophy, that some of the great philosophers throughout history were religious and had taken some pains to try to give their belief a rigorous philosophical grounding.
    From what I’ve encountered, this is true (and it is true for atheist philosophers as well).

    How did your reading of Kant go (if it went at all)?

    Quote Originally Posted by “kilted exile”
    There is certainly no need to wait for the scientific proof before we start making the changes required in our individual lives to protect the planet, the debate for the general public should be more along the lines of what can we do to reduce our resource consumption. No information from the world of science is really required for this.
    This I find interesting, because for some reason it appears that people need to be convinced of the negative effects that their actions are having before changing their ways, as far as it concerns ‘protecting the planet.’

    The people that I have known also tend to need recompense. The notion of helping to better the planet and potentially avoid the harmful effects of their ways doesn’t do it for them; it’s too far off into the future, maybe. A friend of mine recycles because it makes her feel better – she feels as if she is doing something that others don’t take the time to care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by kilted exile
    however If we would all start doing the above it would go a long way towards reducing the strain of our resources.
    How do we convince people that doing the above is important?

    BTW, thanks for that post kilted exile.
    As Kingfishers catch fire, dragonflies draw flame . . .


    Why disqualify the rush? I'm tabled. I'm tabled.



  8. #8
    Registered User Orionsbelt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    181

    New Religion Projectism

    I can't help but first point out the flaw in Mr. Mackay's logic. Indeed the world is complex but I would be unwilling to attribute it to a single source just because it exists. I am of the opinion that it was class project. Otherwise I think the design paradigms would be much more consistent. For example why design one wing for a bat and another for a bird? I single design would have been sufficient for both, more economical, and require less resources to maintain. The whole sea thing is a mess. I think my argument has as much weight as his does. As a scientist I am required to show evidence for my theory which I believe I have done (bats, birds, and sea creatures). How is it standing up to pear review? How will you test my theory? (Good luck I haven't had to test it myself yet) It's on you now to prove me wrong. Is this the hard to prove the negative syndrome?

    Lot's of philosophers through history have been men of belief including Darwin, himself Einstein, Sir Isaac Newton etc. I think these people looked for the face of God in what they found in nature. The unfortunate thing for Mr. Mackay is that someone painted a picture of the face of God for him and he is now running around asking everyone if anybody has seen the model. The original artist lived a long time ago and some of the features may have matured over time. I think we would be better served to develop a new face for God based on what we know now. Expecting that it will change. We will be even more amazed. But for some; it must be so; just as it was; we have a picture.

    BTW.. Great idea for a topic
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. - Mark Twain

  9. #9
    dum spiro, spero Nossa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Egypt
    Posts
    1,168
    Blog Entries
    50
    Firstly..great article and indeed a great idea for a topic...Thanks for sharing it with us..
    Now on to the topic..
    I, personally, don't take science for granted..cuz in many cases it has proved it was wrong...OR not certain in the sense that, you can't get to the ultimate solution or explanation in nowadays world...
    However, for me at least, I still got my beliefs, about which I wouldn't change my mind...and so I think that a part of how I form my opinion is whether it fits with my beliefs or not...
    And i'm willing to admit that i'm wrong about a certain issue...and it happened many times before that I found someone else's opinion more persuasive..and there should be nothing wrong with this...
    I don't have such an "unacceptable proof"...as long as it's persuasive AND respecting my beliefs..then why not?!
    I'm the patron saint of the denial,
    With an angel face and a taste for suicidal.

  10. #10
    Boll Weevil cuppajoe_9's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,644
    Blog Entries
    9
    "Exact science is not an exact science"
    - The character of Nicola Tesla in The Prestige (although I would not be surprised to learn that the real Nicola Tesla also said that).

    A few weeks of college-level epistimology has me convinced that it is not possible to know anything with 100% certainty. Descartes thought he had one nailed down ("I think therefore I am"), but who's to say there aren't just thoughts floating around the universe like x-rays? Nothing is 100% certain, but a lot of things are 99% certain (that I am typing on an Apple Macintosh computer, for example). I think we have to take what we can get, comforting as 100% certainties may be.
    What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
    - Gertrude Stein

    A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
    - Virginia Woolf

  11. #11
    Voice of Chaos & Anarchy
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    In one of the branches of the multiverse, but I don't know which one.
    Posts
    8,777
    Blog Entries
    557
    It is true, all species have always existed as they are today, and the Earth's temperature will rise by 10 degrees centigrade in the nex 95 years.

    At least both of those bits of foolishness have made a lot of people decent wages.

  12. #12
    Boll Weevil cuppajoe_9's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,644
    Blog Entries
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    It is true, all species have always existed as they are today, and the Earth's temperature will rise by 10 degrees centigrade in the nex 95 years.

    At least both of those bits of foolishness have made a lot of people decent wages.
    I've never heard anybody say more than five. Five would be very very very bad, and it is quite possible.

    I think more people have earned decent livings on the assumption that you can put whatever you want into the atmosphere with no ill efects whatever.
    What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
    - Gertrude Stein

    A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
    - Virginia Woolf

  13. #13
    dum spiro, spero Nossa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Egypt
    Posts
    1,168
    Blog Entries
    50
    Nothing is 100% certain, but a lot of things are 99% certain
    Totally agree on that...
    I'm the patron saint of the denial,
    With an angel face and a taste for suicidal.

  14. #14
    Boll Weevil cuppajoe_9's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,644
    Blog Entries
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutGrace
    Well, John Mackay has a big problem right off the bat, obviously.
    Yeah, it's a lot easier to argue if you're right, eh?




    (Warning: do not take the above post seriously. Thank you.)
    What is the use of a violent kind of delightfulness if there is no pleasure in not getting tired of it.
    - Gertrude Stein

    A washerwoman with her basket; a rook; a red-hot poker; th purples and grey-greens of flowers: some common feeling which held the whole together.
    - Virginia Woolf

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    12

    The Pendulum swings both ways

    You may have coincidentally found a source for Umberto Eco’s novel, The Island of the Day Before. In this very complex and at times confusing story, a shipwrecked sailor, who can’t swim, is marooned on a mysteriously abandoned ship that lies a mere 100 yards or so from the shore of a tropical island. The island is just on the other side of the international dateline and thus the hapless sailor is in plain sight of, but can’t get to—yesterday! While onboard he meets an old Jesuit priest who is on a very secret mission to test an invention that can accurately determine longitude.
    As for evidence and certainty, this story seems to make hash out of certainty, a characteristic of Post modern literature. What can be more certain than our present day notion of time?
    Last edited by litlearner; 11-11-2006 at 11:01 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. What is Faith?
    By Stanislaw in forum Religious Texts
    Replies: 141
    Last Post: 08-07-2008, 10:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •