Post-Is Jesus really God?

[Green Lady]

Okay, so I know I'm probably jumping in here but, the God I believe in, (who is by the way the only true god, but let's not get into that), is a trinity. He is one being, revealed in 3 distinct persons. By person, I mean personality. It's like three aspects of the same being. A person can be a mother, a daugther and a wife for example. She is only one creature, but three different aspects of a person. This is hard to explain. If we could understand everything, we would be gods. I'm not trying to excuse this issue though.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They say they agree with His teachings, but the koran contradicts the Scriptures.

Keep in mind also that Jesus is eternal. He did not suddenly come into being 2,000 years ago when He came to earth.

If they are all the same person, can you explain this verse:

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Why would He be asking Himself why He had forsaken Himself?

[muhsin]

So...your saying all people who have faith are mentally imbalanced?

This really is a misunderstanding of what i actually meant in my espression.
Any way, i am on my knees begging for forgiveness.I hope my request will be granted.

[muhsin]

Dear seekers of truth,

“and that is why I was sent as an APOSTLE and TEACHER of the Gentiles to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying, I am telling the truth”(1 timothy 2:7)

“……christ JESUS the son of Mary was (no more than) an APOSTLE of God….(Holy Quran 4:171)

My friends. Look at the above texts, read , and re-read them for better understanding about who really is Jesus. God? Well I don’t think, but who? APOSTLE.
Satisfied? If not, let me know. I have many more dishes that can wipe your hunger of knowing truth.

[rufioag]

My quote about mental imbalance was aimed at a post ThatIndividual had written but was edited by administration.

Also I will go onto say this. 1 timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Please, I beg of you, it can be very misleading to just copy and paste a verse because this is not anything that Jesus said. This is the writer of 1 Timothy writing who niether puts the verse in quotes or makes an attempt to say that Jesus said this. This verse is merely the thought and belief of the writer.. Why would he speak the truth in himself if it was Christ speaking? It is not so therefore the question is not needed. Jesus never said he was an apostle of God.

So I do not believe you really understand the text as well as you believe. There is not one instance in the whole Bible that shows Jesus claiming to being a prophet.

Once again, the verse quoted is not Jesus speaking.

Second) Green Lady - Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Many interpret this verse to Psalms 22:1 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

This is a very interesting verse and later on describes the cruxificion, a death sentence that didnt even exist at the time it was written!

Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.

[Shield&Sword]

Another time i jump in, sorrrrrrry.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 11:41-42
Verses above show that Jesus was sent, and in first verse its so clear who is God and who sent who. In the second its clear also that Jesus thank God that He heard his prayer, and if u go back to the bible to see the whole story u will see how he was worried (does God thank him self and does God ask things from him self?).
Jesus PRAY: Luke 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
(does God pray to him self? does a man pray to a part of him self?)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17. In this verse Jesus admit he is going to his God.
Verses of bible show so clear that Jesus is no God, and i dont know those who believe Jesus is God which verse they use. Verses which show that Jesus is a normal man and that he is not God or part of God are so clear, while we cant find one verse in which Jesus pbuh say I AM GOD, for the verses that show Jesus is normal man not God they give incredible explinaitions.
Even there are verses in bible who that Jesus has no free will and that he doesnt know any thing by him self, i dont know why they leave these clear verses and follow the strange explinations of priests.
In Italy lately a kid was kidnapped, the funny thing is that the Pope prayed to Mary pbuh to protect him, and even in bible we find no verse that show Jesus pbuh is God, they now pray to Marry like she has force or she can hear them and if we read all bible we will see Marry few times only and no describtion of her or wht happened to her, only we see her between lines here and there. And we never heared some one say to Pope what are you saying, from where u got this idea about Marry. We all have minds to think and to find questions, we dont follow only wht others say without understanding or without checking. Even i wrote the canceled verse about trinity from now adays bible and no one said any thing, no one responded, like nothing happened, trinty exist if bible say it or not, what preists say are more sacred than bible?

[rufioag]

Catholics pray to Mary, i just want to clerify this. Most Christians do not pray to Mary and there is no reason to. She gave birth to Jesus and that is all.

It has been explained else where that God exists within a Trinity and when Jesus prayed, he prayed to God the Father in Heaven. There are countless verses that have been posted that expalin the trinity and Jesus's claims to God. I hope that you will search the truth and understand if that is your true intention.

The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

I am - this shows his claim to diety. It wont make sense unless you have read the whole Bible and understand the reference to the old testament.

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

The key thing that you need to understand is the Trinity. And shows me key verses that have been canceled from the Bible? I think Imust have missed it.

[Theshizznigg]

Hmm?
Really I sometimes wonder about people, and why they are so willing to disprove Christianity at times.
Are they really that afraid of a God they say doesn't exist? That they need to grasp at straws all the time to make themselves secure in their faith or belief?

Its often a wonder to me, how supposed Agnostics and Atheist know more bible verse, and are bible learned than some Christians.... Still I can only wonder.

"Often so often? Is it really so dark?"
-Space Invader #3

[Theshizznigg]

If your having trouble understanding things try a good Christian books like Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It contains a wealth of religious wisdom and knowledge, and makes sense out the religion without blowing it out of porportions.

"I was dreaming of that Lightbulb. I love that lightbulb. Hey I'm still a stinking Bug!" - Bug Off!
Shizz

[ShoutGrace]

And show me key verses that have been canceled from the Bible? I think I must have missed it.

Even i wrote the canceled verse about trinity from now adays bible and no one said any thing, no one responded, like nothing happened, trinty exist if bible say it or not, what preists say are more sacred than bible?

1 John 5:7-8

"For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three are in agreement." RSV - NIV - ESV - NASB - NAB - HCSB - NLT - NCV - NRSV

"For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three agree as one." KJV - NKJV

The KJV has long been recognized as a faulty and errant translation derived from a faulty and errant base manuscript. The KJV rendering of 1 John 5:7-8 is not found in any manuscript dating before the sixteenth century, at which time it suddenly appeared in certain translations.

What does this mean for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity? Has this scholarly discovery dashed the Trinity against the rocks? Well if it has, millions of Bible scholars around the world have missed it. 1 John 5:7-8 is not at all neccessary. Please read the the end of this page for a relatively complete list of exegetical determinations which explain fully why anyone reading the Bible (Old and New Testaments) must conclude that the text describes the Trinity in the fullest sense.

[muhsin]

My quote about mental imbalance was aimed at a post ThatIndividual had written but was edited by administration.

Also I will go onto say this. 1 timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Please, I beg of you, it can be very misleading to just copy and paste a verse because this is not anything that Jesus said. This is the writer of 1 Timothy writing who niether puts the verse in quotes or makes an attempt to say that Jesus said this. This verse is merely the thought and belief of the writer.. Why would he speak the truth in himself if it was Christ speaking? It is not so therefore the question is not needed. Jesus never said he was an apostle of God.

So I do not believe you really understand the text as well as you believe. There is not one instance in the whole Bible that shows Jesus claiming to being a prophet.

Once again, the verse quoted is not Jesus speaking.

Second) Green Lady - Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Many interpret this verse to Psalms 22:1 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

This is a very interesting verse and later on describes the cruxificion, a death sentence that didnt even exist at the time it was written!

Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.

This reaveals that you don't read bible voraciously. As you already know, there are different editions and prints of bible,probably the one you are using is not like the one i am, so, different people/writers/publishers/editors etc different way of expression a speech,but with same meaning.
Unfortunetly, i am now not with my bible, but i promise to tell you it's given name, it's publishers, year of publication and so on.
The aforesaid, is one of the identical factors that distinguish Holy Bible and Holy Quran.

[ShoutGrace]

This reaveals that you don't read bible voraciously. As you already know, there are different editions and prints of bible,probably the one you are using is not like the one i am, so, different people/writers/publishers/editors etc different way of expression a speech,but with same meaning.
Unfortunetly, i am now not with my bible, but i promise to tell you it's given name, it's publishers, year of publication and so on.
The aforesaid, is one of the identical factors that distinguish Holy Bible and Holy Quran.

I don't think that the Koran and the Bible are distinguished in this way. If anyone wishes, they can read the 2nd century manuscripts in Greek. I have a New Testament Greek interlinear for this very purpose.

A book which is 4 times the size of the Koran and more than 2,000 years older is bound to be more difficult to both translate and discern. Not to mention the difficulties which arise in trying to find the original texts. But we can get close.

In this way, I think that it can be shown that the editors/publishers cannot "get away" with mistranslating the original text. Every translation aims for perfection. The NASB is exclusively literal. The NIV freely admits that at times, due to language barriers, the text has been reformulated into a sort of "thought for thought" version. It certainly reads better that way.

The texts are available in their (near) original form. Any alleged differences encountered while reading different translations can be easily researched. The responsibility to do so lies with the reader. I hold myself culpable if I fail to cross-check amongst different translations every verse I read. Thinking is an important characteristic of faith (and one I likely fail to respect most every day )!

p.s. Just for my own understanding, are you saying that there is only one way to translate Arabic, that it has been successfully done, and that every English translation accurately reflects this perfect rendering?

ps.s. It is amazing that you can detect that Rufioag is not a "voracious" Bible reader from he/she's post. How did you do that?

[muhsin]

I don't think that the Koran and the Bible are distinguished in this way. If anyone wishes, they can read the 2nd century manuscripts in Greek. I have a New Testament Greek interlinear for this very purpose.

A book which is 4 times the size of the Koran and more than 2,000 years older is bound to be more difficult to both translate and discern. Not to mention the difficulties which arise in trying to find the original texts. But we can get close.

In this way, I think that it can be shown that the editors/publishers cannot "get away" with mistranslating the original text. Every translation aims for perfection. The NASB is exclusively literal. The NIV freely admits that at times, due to language barriers, the text has been reformulated into a sort of "thought for thought" version. It certainly reads better that way.

The texts are available in their (near) original form. Any alleged differences encountered while reading different translations can be easily researched. The responsibility to do so lies with the reader. I hold myself culpable if I fail to cross-check amongst different translations every verse I read. Thinking is an important characteristic of faith (and one I likely fail to respect most every day )!

p.s. Just for my own understanding, are you saying that there is only one way to translate Arabic, that it has been successfully done, and that every English translation accurately reflects this perfect rendering?

ps.s. It is amazing that you can detect that Rufioag is not a "voracious" Bible reader from he/she's post. How did you do that?

Well, you a little bit suprise me.
Sincerly speaking,yes this really makes them differ. As nobody on this planet can add or reduce a single word from Quran by any means or trick.
Have you ever heard something like Old or New Testment of Quran?
What of Bible, even I as non-christian i got these two versions.
Again, have u ever heard or seen any Quranic verse made with different Arabic language?
I swear even I, got two bible with this nature, and that is what makes Rufiog to think that i mis-qouted the verse.
Anyway, this can easily be detected as to the expression he/she mentioned, i.e I misquoted the verse. And look at the one(verse) he/she qouted,read and re-read it with sheer attention.What u'll figure is that: the verses are almost talking about one thing, the only thing that makes them different is the way each one is expressed.
Conclusively, about the first question you mentioned, i'm afraid to say i didn't get it well.do please rephrase it so that i can grab it's meaning.

best wishes.

[Shield&Sword]

The verse in King James Version John 5:7 inform us so clearly that Jesus and Father and Holy Spirirt are, and thats what christianity untle now believe, and its the only one clear verse that show trinity and say they all are one.
In Awake magazine (Jehova) in 8th number spetember 1958 there was an article :50,000 mistakes in bible. It was talking about king James version, and i gave an example and how a verse that talk about the base of christianity was canceled which is trinity (the problem is that the verse agree with christianity and the most clear verse about this matter, and in bible there is no other verse that explain trinity and no other verse that agree 100% with what priests say only John1 5:7 in KJ version).
Now adays versions of bible are written by using scriptures older than scriptures used (closer to the age of Jesus pbuh), i noticed that when they went to the older scriptures christianity (in books) became more different from what priests say, more that Jesus is man not God, also John1 4:9 the word BEGOTTEN we can see it in KJ version but not in now adays versions.
The problem here is not only errors of translations, they are errors of ADDING AND CANCELLING ( here we have the question how much the bible is precise? 10% 30% 50% 70% 80%, for sure not 100%, in other words: not all word of God, are all mistakes that we can find in KJ version are changed now? some of christians answer (priests) this question here in this link (i have already post this link in another thread) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html).
Protestant doesnt believe that Jesus is God so and Jehovah, catholic and other churchs do. A user posted about truth and to seek for it, another talk about approoving christianity and being afraid of God. According me Seeking for God is the best thing and the most important thing a man can do during his life. Protestants are considered christians so and catholics, but they are not agreed on one God. Is it a religioun of God or people?
John 8:57-59 alot of christians explain it as the fisic existence of Jesus before Abraham pbuh, and thats mean he is God. In which form he existed? in soul? as a complete human with body with blood and flesh (after his birth he was in this form)? as a bird (i dont think so, the holy spirit form)? as the father (i dont think so)? as an ovule (in his mother's womb he was in such form)? As a lamb (John saw such thing in his dream)?
Even when he was before Abraham pbuh was he son of God, or after his birth he became son of God? same thing for the Father, did he become father only after Jesus's buh birht?
The existence of Jesus pbuh is not the fisic existence but the existence in God's knowledge, we all existed before we were born, i was before Abraham pbuh so and u and every one, God know who will become when and what will be. In Islam there is a saying of prophet Muhammed pbuh he say that he was a prophet before Adam pbuh exist, no one from muslims claimed that Muhammed pbuh is God because he said such thing, all muslims know that he meant the existence in God's knowledge the non fisic existence.
Once again we dont find one clear verse that approve Jesus pbuh is God, no one verse in which Jesus pbuh say i am God.
About translations of bible alot of priests when they talk about the difference between different versions of bible they say matter of translation. Apocrypha are chapters of bible that catholic believe they are word of God so and orthodox but protestant doesnt believe they are word of God and they doesnt write them in bibles they print, while we see them in bibles that catholic print. You can go back to the meaning of word apocrypha and see what interesting meaning they have. So which bible is the true one, the one with apocrypha or the one without, which persons were right and which werent, the one who believed in KJ version or now adays versions, the one who believe in apocrypha or the one who dont? casue adding and canceling is so dangerous as John say in revelation 22:18-19.
For the user who wrote about scholars missing the cancelling of verses from bible, well u must know that scholars canceled it, and if scholars didnt say anything about cancelling of this verse it doesnt mean they are right, and that it doesnt change anything, always scholars scholars, the Pope pray to Marry pbuh without any prove we never saw a scholars say to him what you are saying, there is no such thing in bible, while the catholic church is the biggest church in world, and the Pope is considered the biggest scholar. Another priests when they talk infront christians or people they invite to christianity they use the verse John1 4:9, and if u watch the dialogue between Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart you will see about this matter (using begotten, and how Jimmy Swaggart changed it, u can see the whole video of the dialogue), they canceled the word Begotten from now adays bibles because its a word that describe an a action that need a sexual relation to be happen, and such word cant be used with God, sex is the lowest action that animal make. Its not matter of what scholars say or what they notice, its matter of us.
About seeking for truth i believe in Jesus pbuh as prophet , i believe also in God, and God for me is different from his creatures, God doesnt eat (i cant believe God who created all this, and the must beutifull can go to bathroom and make there what he must do after eating), cant believe God walk or beaten or DIED or cry, or was born from a woman womb and even i am sure that mother of Jesus didnt believe that GOD exist in her womb so she must eat good, or when she was feeding him she believed she is feeding God, or when she was dressing him, and people who circumcised him didnt believe they are circumsing God an they got piece of him, or people who wanted to stone him, i am not making fun, asking logic questions. I believe there is nothing like God, not in form, not in force, not in existence, he is UNIQUE, He is the one, he doesnt nead us and we need him. When i read books seeking for truth i put these thoughts in a place in my mind where i can see them so clearly in my mind and begin to read, any thing that can be against these thoughts i drop it. truth is known by mind not emotions.

[ShoutGrace]

If you actually have anything specific you want to discuss please separate it from the rest of your diatribe.

p.s. can somebody tell me what "pbuh" means?

[ShoutGrace]

The verse in King James Version John 5:7 inform us so clearly that Jesus and Father and Holy Spirirt are, and thats what christianity untle now believe, and its the only one clear verse that show trinity and say they all are one.

As I said earlier, any person who has completely read both the Old and New testaments must exegetically conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity is present and real. Whether or not the reader wants to accept this fact is a separate issue.

In Awake magazine (Jehova) in 8th number spetember 1958 there was an article :50,000 mistakes in bible. It was talking about king James version, and i gave an example and how a verse that talk about the base of christianity was canceled which is trinity (the problem is that the verse agree with christianity and the most clear verse about this matter, and in bible there is no other verse that explain trinity and no other verse that agree 100% with what priests say only John1 5:7 in KJ version)

I would question that 50,000 number. Often times critics will cite mistakes in the manuscripts like commas missing, misspellings etc. Then they will add each of these mistakes from every one of the 20,000 existing extant copies of the New Testament and every copy of the Old Testament together; repeats and all.

Jesus clearly stated that he was God. The doctrine of the Trinity is the only possible explanation for the text of the Bible.

The problem here is not only errors of translations, they are errors of ADDING AND CANCELLING ( here we have the question how much the bible is precise? 10% 30% 50% 70% 80%, for sure not 100%, in other words: not all word of God, are all mistakes that we can find in KJ version are changed now?

This is simply a copout. As I stated earlier, if anyone wants to know what was originally written, they can just read it for themselves.

Protestant doesnt believe that Jesus is God so and Jehovah, catholic and other churchs do. A user posted about truth and to seek for it, another talk about approoving christianity and being afraid of God.

Any person who takes the Bible literally believes that Jesus claimed to be God.

Once again we dont find one clear verse that approve Jesus pbuh is God, no one verse in which Jesus pbuh say i am God.

This is just a false statement. Please see the other threads concerning this topic if you really want to educate yourself.

and the Pope is considered the biggest scholar

By whom?

and if u watch the dialogue between Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart you will see about this matter (using begotten, and how Jimmy Swaggart changed it, u can see the whole video of the dialogue)

Is this discussion the foundation upon which you have built your beliefs? Why is Jimmy Swaggart the be all end all? I contend that he is not and I would not believe anything that he said over the Word of God.

When i read books seeking for truth i put these thoughts in a place in my mind where i can see them so clearly in my mind and begin to read, any thing that can be against these thoughts i drop it. truth is known by mind not emotions.

Absolutely! The mind plays one crucial role in apprehending truth. What is so amazing is that you are more enlightened than all the Christians around the world. You are using your mind whereas we are just using our emotions. Shame!